Jordan Peterson & Sam Harris Try to Find Something They Agree On | EP 408

Religious fundamentalism and dogmatism—the insistence that core beliefs cannot be revised regardless of evidence—is the primary source of sectarian violence and prevents genuine moral progress, whereas secular approaches to ethics allow for evidence-based revision.

“immunity to counterevidence no matter how compelling is not a good thing um intellectually and and ethically in any secular context... the status quo with respect to religious sectarianism across the world it has been that way for thousands of years and it is still that way every Muslim Christian Jew Mormon Hindu every every true religious person... has said in advance of any conversation on any topic listen there are a few core things I believe and that my children believe and I have taught them to believe and I don't want you meddling in any of that stuff”

Religious belief systems like Christianity and Islam are worse forms of ethical pathology than purely secular terrorism because they add an otherworldly dimension to violence—the promise of paradise—which removes internal brakes on destructive behavior and increases motivation for suicide attacks.

“what is worse about jihadism than you know ordinary forms of terrorism in my view it is the religious Top Spin it all it has based on the the its motivating idea so the fact that it is is in principle otherworldly the fact that it is you know just anchored to to prophecy and belief in the Supernatural all of that potentiates it uh in the you know further in the wrong direction”

People can hold strong beliefs about matters they cannot imagine being wrong about (like the geometry of three-dimensional space) without being dogmatic, because such beliefs are based on solid methodology and would be revised if presented with adequate conceptual tools or evidence.

“there are other things that we believe right that we would wouldn't say are dogmas but we would also say I'm not going to waste any time worrying that I might be wrong here because I just don't see how I could possibly be wrong now we know if that in the context of those beliefs it's still possible to be wrong right so there there was a time where human beings would have said listen I've studied uid I understand geometry you know you're talking about the possibility of more than three dimensions it's obvious to me that doesn't make any sense... so there's a large so there can be fundamental changes in our view of things that are surprising”

The possibility of needing to descend into a valley of suffering to reach an adjacent higher peak on the moral landscape is troubling but should be seriously considered rather than dismissed, as it suggests moral progress might sometimes require temporary regression.

“there could be Peaks that if we if there was if we were more omniscient than we are or ever going to be we we would be able to compare these two peaks and and say that it's better to be you know one is higher than the other with respect to certain variables um which is I just I don't think it's all random I think there is structure there in in among possible experience given whatever the the natural laws are”

Morality must be grounded in facts about conscious creatures' suffering and wellbeing, and scientific investigation into consciousness, neurobiology, psychology, and the nature of possible minds across the universe is therefore fundamentally a moral enterprise.

“morality has to relate to the the suffering and well-being of conscious creatures... whatever can possibly suffer or be made happy in this universe is some is a possible theater of moral concern and we know that mind that conscious minds must be arising in some way in Conformity to the laws of nature”

Evil can usefully be understood as ignorance or lack of wisdom—the failure to recognize what produces wellbeing and meaning—rather than as a positive force, and this Buddhist framing allows for greater compassion toward those whose harmful actions stem from misunderstanding rather than malice.

“I think it's at least plausible to think of evil at bottom as being more a matter of ignorance than anything else and this certainly would be the Buddhist framing of of evil I mean Budd Buddhists don't tend to think about evil and certainly the Buddhist teachings about this weren't really a matter of evil versus good it's it's more a matter of ignorance versus wisdom um and even you know Greek Phil Socrates I believe made this point that you know no one consciously or very very few people consciously do evil”

We do not yet understand the relationship between consciousness and information processing, and therefore cannot know whether artificial intelligence systems will be conscious, but we may build conscious machines capable of suffering without recognizing what we have done.

“if if we don't know how Consciousness arises in this universe and if we don't know whether or or when it arises on the basis of information processing we are not going to know whether we build conscious machines right I think we're going to almost certainly we will build machines that seem conscious to us before we know whether or not they are conscious”

According to Harris, approximately 45% of Americans identify as Christian fundamentalists, representing a significant portion of the American political and social landscape that remains committed to literal biblical claims like the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus.

“we've got something like 45% of Americans who are sitting there on their Christian fundamentalism right um and yes we can play nice on other topics that don't strike a tangent to those core beliefs”

Social media platforms like Twitter, by facilitating instantaneous responses to events, create a delusional environment that amplifies psychopathic and narcissistic behavior because they select for and reward performative dunking and dishonesty over good-faith argumentation.

“Twitter brings out the absolute worst in us and to and to degrade conversation way more fully than it's ever degraded in person... it was no exaggeration to say that basically every bad thing in my life you know apart from the sickness of the people close to me um was a result of something I had done on Twitter”

There is an implicit unity underlying lists of positive moral attributes like beauty, truth, love, and gratitude; these are not separate goods but facets of a single jewel—an underlying essence or gist that unites all goods.

“I would there's some analogies we could use to capture I I do think of these things as kind as almost facets of a single Jewel right and and so the facets are different it's talking about you can talk about beauty and not talk about love in the same conversation that you can have a coherent discussion of of of beauty without reference to love and and vice versa but when you're talking about the the the conscious states that that maximize one's appreciation of all of these things and participation in all of these things it's easy to to to Intuit it that there's a there's a common structure to the whole picture”

The problem of not knowing what we're missing applies broadly: societies and individuals are unconscious of important truths they could learn or discover, and figuring out what's missing individually and collectively is the work of ethics and progress.

“you don't know people don't know what they're missing that's that across across every possible dimension of both intellectual and ethical uh and relational you know and whole societies know what they're missing and and figuring figuring out what's missing and what and what we're missing is is is all of our work”

Religious texts like the Bible and Quran make specific factual claims about history, biology, and supernatural events (e.g., bodily resurrection, ascension without technology) that conflict with established science, making belief in their divine authorship implausible from a scientific perspective.

“the belief that Jesus rose from the dead and and bodily ascended somewhere and will be returning to Earth at some point the the historical person Jesus not some you know not some anal ology to that person but that's that's not just a religious claim that is a claim about biology it's a claim about human flight without the aid of Technology it's a claim about history it's a claim about... there are many claim it touches everything we know or think we know about science at some place and so it's um and that's why it's it seems quite unlikely to be true”

Harris left Twitter because the delay between stimulus (event on Twitter) and response (potential podcast appearance days or weeks later) naturally filters out approximately 98% of reactionary commentary, dramatically reducing the negative impact of his participation in digital discourse.

“when you don't have an opportunity to just blurt out your instantaneous response to something that's happening in the news or something you saw in your timeline and you have to let that let your response to it cure over the course of days in my case because you know I have to decide okay is this important enough for me to actually talk about it on my podcast and I might not be you know podcasting again for another three days or even a week and so many things don't survive that test that you they just they just 98% of things just fall by the wayside”

Evil people are fundamentally unlucky—they have inherited genetic predispositions and environmental circumstances that produce malevolent psychology through no choice of their own, just as a normal child might unluckily become Stalin given the right harmful conditions.

“evil people because of the brains they have because of the life lives they've had because of the the if you want to add you know a religious Dimension to it because of the souls they have the souls they didn't pick um they're unlucky to be evil and unavailable to you know much of the the human goodness you and I experience”

The Waking Up app creates an entirely different relational dynamic than Harris's podcast: while the podcast generates controversy and requires engagement with bad-faith criticism, the Waking Up app creates uniformly positive interactions with users seeking spiritual and philosophical guidance.

“with the waking up app I get it's it's no exaggeration to say it it's it's it's almost uniformly uh just pure positivity coming back at me... and there's no distance between what I'm intending to put out and the effect I'm hoping to have and the effect that I I in fact seem to be having based on the feedback so and this was you know this has been uh was launched almost exactly five years ago so for five years I've had this look at this kind of alternate life it's almost like a a counterfactual life to the one I I hadn't managed to lead where I could sidestep all pointless controversy”

The biblical principle 'none so blind as those who will not see' suggests that the problem of moral and spiritual blindness is not merely ignorance but also willful refusal, combining ignorance with active resistance to understanding.

“the other Germaine comment might be with regard to ignorance this is one of the things that complicates it morally is there are none so blind as those who will not see”

The primary harm from Twitter in Harris's life came not from attacks by opponents but from things he himself had written or engaged with on the platform, and the solution was recognizing that if one isn't willing to sit down and think about something for an hour, it isn't important enough to broadcast to millions of people.

“basically every bad thing in my life you know apart from you know the sickness of the people close to me um was a result of something I had done on Twitter or or something that I had seen on Twitter relate to that that I felt I needed to respond to”

Meditative and contemplative practice, distinct from dogmatic religious belief, represents a valuable method for directly investigating consciousness and generating insights about optimal living that should be part of a universal conversation about human flourishing.

“my view of the moral landscape is that it's very likely a landscape with multiple Peaks right and multiple valys and so this can sound like moral relativism in the sense that you know that you know you and I might be you know climbing the same Peak over here as Homo sapiens in a you know Western 21st century context but you know at some great distance from ourselves there there are possible minds”

Religious texts like the Bible offer archetypal wisdom about human psychological and spiritual development that can be engaged through literary and mythological analysis without committing to supernatural claims, making them valuable sources for ethical insight.

“I I have a proposition for you and you tell me what you think about this so as far as I'm concerned what the biblical Corpus points to is a a practice of it's a practice of of sacrifice devoted to atonement”

The story of Moses hitting the rock instead of asking it to bring forth water is a narrative representation of the principle that using force and coercion where communication and persuasion could succeed represents a misuse of tradition and authority, incurring moral consequence.

“Moses goes over to the Rocks but instead of asking them he hits the rocks with his staff and his staff is a symbol of tradition of tradition and authority and it's it's the famous staff of Moses and what he does is He commands he uses Force to compel the rocks to bring forth water instead of convincing them to do so verbally and he is punished very severely for that because God tells him that because he used Force where he could have used the logos he could have used linguistic communication”

Deleting his Twitter account was among the most significant positive changes to Harris's life in the previous 12 months, creating an almost unambiguously positive effect on his wellbeing and mental state.

“I I deleted my Twitter account which is you know is a an important part of the answer to your first question of just what has gotten better for me in in the last 12 months um that was you know I'm I really am embarrassed to say what a life hack that turned out to be to get off Twitter”

Harris has personally experienced knowing people who behave decently in person but express absolute worst versions of themselves on Twitter, demonstrating that the platform brings out pathological tendencies in otherwise normal people rather than merely attracting existing psychopaths.

“I had dinner with some of the people I had had dinner with some of the people you and I had you you have mutual friends and and colleagues among these people um and yet I was seeing the absolute worst in them in terms of how they were engaging on Twitter”

We can make valid claims about moral direction and know that some states are worse than others (e.g., the Taliban's treatment of women) without knowing the ultimate nature of good, because we can recognize local peaks and valleys on a moral landscape even if the ultimate peak is ineffable.

“we know that things can get better and they get quite a bit better and quite a bit worse and we know that better and worse... we know that this universe offers in the space of all possible Minds and all possible experiences there is there there are places of unimaginable suffering... and conversely we know that there's just experiences of of of beauty and creativity and inspiration and love and gratitude... so we know that these extremes exist... we don't need to know exactly what the highest possible good is we just have to know directionally”

The difference between Harris's online experience (largely positive interactions) and his public social media experience (mostly negative) is so stark that the two realities bear almost no relationship to one another, suggesting a fundamental delusion produced by social media architecture.

“my online life and my real life are so different that they almost bear no relationship to one another like and and I I suspect this is something that you said you've been discovering particularly as a consequence of working in the waking up space you know I mean all the interactions I have with people in public in my actual life are unbelievably positive with the exception of perhaps one in 5,000”

Virtues can be expressed toward evil ends; a guard at Auschwitz who enjoyed his work demonstrates that the capacity for happiness and life satisfaction is independent of the moral character of one's actions, complicating moral psychology.

“you your description of a a a guard at aitz who enjoys his work um I think it's tempting to imagine that that guard is incapable of all the ordinary forms of happiness and life satisfaction that we would recognize in ourselves because of what he is spending his time doing and and I would say that's that's obviously not the case I mean so so the and there there can be virtues expressed toward evil ends”

Twitter-driven activism—particularly in Pro-Palestinian protests on college campuses—demonstrates how the platform creates a feedback loop where physical protests are primarily staged for broadcast back to Twitter rather than being rooted in genuine political engagement.

“there are many things out happening out in the real world that happen in response to something that's seen on Twitter but then the the you know like some of many of these protests these Pro Palestinian protests that that have become so such concern to many of us especially on you know college campuses where you have otherwise very educated people expressing solidarity with with um true ethical monsters uh in Hamas um what we're seeing is something's getting provoked by imagery on Twitter uh however half-baked uh and then the response to it in the streets is is performative because it is it you know it's it's meant for the streets but it's really meant to be broadcast back on Twitter”

The fundamental incoherence of postmodernism is that it denies the existence of universal moral values and metanarratives while simultaneously asserting that tolerance is universally better than intolerance, thus making an unwarranted universal claim.

“the claim is there can be no Universal values right and a universal truth claim for the respect of right and wrong and good and evil and yet they tacitly make the universal claim that tolerance of this ethical diversity is better than intolerance”

Well-educated people in the West make extremely fine-grained moral distinctions about microaggressions and cultural appropriation on college campuses but become 'tongue-tied' and refuse to condemn obviously evil systems like the Taliban's treatment of women, revealing an incoherent moral framework.

“the moral confusion here is that you have many well-educated people who uh will make very fine grain distinctions about uh moral Norms in the context of you know living you know in 21st century America you know they'll they'll consider words to be violence and you know the misgendering of people to be a profound microaggression but you ask them to consider whether you you know someone like malal ysep ey was badly treated by the Taliban and they become Tongue Tied”

In imagining a scenario where Joseph Stalin had been 'cured' of his sociopathy through advanced brain modification while retaining memory of his atrocities, the resulting experience would be profound regret and gratitude for rescue from a pathological state, suggesting that evil is fundamentally a form of mental illness rather than a cosmic force.

“imagine what it would be like to deliver this cure we can actually just just modify all of the receptor sites and densities and Connections in the brain so to so as to turn this malevolent sociopath into a an entirely normal person with the normal pro-social attitudes etc etc but keeping intact his biographical memory and the other aspects of his identity right so so imagine being able to engineer the following experience for Joseph Stalin where you deliver him the the cure for for all that ails him ethically and but he has still has a memory”

The biblical narrative of the Exodus represents a pattern of voluntary descent into suffering (the desert) as a necessary precondition for ascent to a higher state (the promised land), which can be understood psychologically and strategically as a universal pattern for moral and spiritual development.

“Moses has been leading them along you know in a very admirable Manner and so this is what happens when they get on to the border of the Promised Land so they're right there they're still in the desert they run out of water yet again... they're heading for the promised land right which is the next Peak on the moral landscape you might say now... they left tyranny which was an inappropriate mode of organization they fell into the desert which is an intermediary period That's not the least bit Pleasant and they're heading for the promised land right”

The biblical prohibition against using the Lord's name in vain warns against the specific sin of claiming to act in the name of what is highest while pursuing only selfish or malevolent motivations, which is the root of religious justification for evil.

“there's a there's a injunction in the Ten Commandments it's either the second or third commandment I can't remember which that you're not to use the lord's name in vain and it's the same injunction that pops up a couple of times in the gospels where Christ tells his followers to not pray in public and to not be like the Pharisees where their Good Deeds can be seen in public and so the first the first injunction the the Commandment is pointing out a deadly sin and the sin is to claim to be acting in the name of what is most high when all you're actually doing is pursuing either your own motivations or even worse the your worst possible motivations”

Elon Musk's personal use of Twitter has been catastrophic for his reputation and personal wellbeing, demonstrating how the platform creates compulsive engagement and destructive behavior even in people with extraordinary talent and other productive outlets.

“the very large the 800 PB Canary in the coal mine for me is Elon I mean look at what Twitter has done to elon's life right it's just you know Elon used to be a friend you know he's somebody I knew reasonably well um you know his engagement with Twitter has been catastrophic for him as a person from my point of view I mean it's just it's clearly a compuls compulsion”

A jihadist who kills children while genuinely believing those children will go directly to paradise is not acting with hatred toward the children but rather with a twisted compassion, believing the killing serves the children's salvation—demonstrating how false religious beliefs can invert moral reasoning even while maintaining subjectively virtuous emotional states.

“I'm not imagining that the per the people who did that actually hated the children right they just believe they believe that there's absolutely no possibility of making aoral error here because the children they know are going to go straight to paradise they've actually done the children a favor by by the light of their beliefs”

Pathological systems of ideas both facilitate psychopathic behavior in those inclined toward it and attract psychopaths who were already inclined to harm, operating through both mechanisms simultaneously rather than just one.

“I would say that's another point of agreement we we it seems to me that that the the pathological the systems that produce rapid movement towards social and psychological pathology both facilitate Psychopathic behavior and attract the Psychopaths I would say it's it's both of those you can have both of those operating at the same time right”

The Alchemical dictum 'inquilinus inventure' (in filth it will be found) represents the principle that what one most needs to discover often lies in the darkest, most unwelcome terrain, paralleling both the narrative structure of hero quests and the psychological requirement to voluntarily confront difficult truths.

“there's an old alchemical idea by the way that the philosopher stone is a jewel in a Toad's head and the idea there... it's inquilinus inventure which means roughly in filth it will be found or to elaborate slightly means that that which you most need will be found where you least want to look”

Positive emotion mediated by dopamine is associated with movement toward a posited goal; false goals produce false enthusiasm by definition, and this principle is exemplified in the biblical story of the Tower of Babel as a warning against building structures predicated on false assumptions or false goals.

“positive emotion of the incentive kind mediated by dopamine is associated with movement towards a a posited goal and so what that means is that false goal produces false enthusias false goals produce false enthusiasm essentially by definition right and so that's actually by the way as far as I can tell the moral of the story of the Tower of Babel by the way is that you can build pyramidal structures that reach to the sky that are predicated upon either false goals or false assumptions and the consequence of that is the creation of a state of disunity and misery so comprehensive that people can no longer communicate with one another”

The myth of the harrowing of Hell in Christian tradition represents the idea that confrontation with malevolence itself (not merely suffering) is necessary for redemption, suggesting there is no pathway to salvation without willingness to hoist the world's tragedies and confront evil.

“but there's also an insistence that the pattern that that Christ acts out involves the harrowing of Hell which is confrontation not only with tragedy but with malevolence itself and so the idea there is that and maybe this is what's asserted dogmatically if it's understood is that there is no Pathway to redemp and salvation without being willing to Hoist the world's tragedies onto your shoulders and to confront evil”

The Gospel of Thomas statement that 'the kingdom of God is spread upon the earth but men will not see it' reflects the principle that understanding the highest good requires not just knowledge but willingness—an active openness that many lack.

“I would say in response to that two things I guess one is I think this is from the Gospel of Thomas Christ said to his followers the kingdom of God is spread upon the Earth but men will not see it or cannot see it depending on the translation”

Peterson's conversation with Harris at a Salk Institute conference, where an academic refused to condemn the Taliban, occurred either in 2006 or 2007 and was so significant that Harris turned on his heels and immediately wrote down the exact exchange verbatim.

“it was either in 2006 or S I believe uh and I had said something disparaging about the Taliban... a a um a woman academic uh and she actually happened to be or was later a scientific adviser to to President Obama uh for medical ethics came up to me and said well that's just your opinion right and so then this this this this led me to to realize just how far the rot had spread you know that even here here is someone who is you know a woman academic uh who's enjoying all the freedom... I you know I I I detail our our further conversation again verbatim um in my book because I literally I was so ounded by The Exchange that I I I turned on my heels literally in mid-sentence walked straight back to my room and wrote down exactly what the two of us had said”

Harris became convinced of the objective reality of good and evil through collisions with postmodern relativists who refused to condemn the Taliban's treatment of women, which motivated his search for a rational foundation for moral claims.

“this came largely out of the collisions I was having with uh people after I wrote my first two books the end of faith and letter to a Christian Nation where I was noticing disproportionally on the left uh specifically... you know I the point where it it became... I was at the so Institute at a um a conference... I said something about uh well you know we we just know whatever we whatever remains to be discovered about the nature of morality... we know that the the Talib the Taliban don't have it perfectly right”