What this covers
📗 Get The Lost Chapter from my upcoming book here: https://NoahKagan.com/Lost
In this video, I interview shipowner Michael Hudner, whose video clip on my channel went viral (18M+ views). We learn how he went from a desk job to owning over 140 ships and overcoming adversity on his journey.
Michael Hudner’s company: https://bhships.com/
Timestamps
00:00 - Intro 01:45 - Michael’s viral clip 02:24 - Career summary 03:57 - $1B in ships 04:22 - Starting out in real estate 05:13 - Work for yourself = freedom 06:13 - Michael had a dream 08:12 - Other people’s money 09:46 - Lost Chapter 10:31 - Most challenging moments 11:15 - Overcoming emotional pain 17:01 - Money culture 19:07 - His sailboat 20:34 - Money is energy 22:48 - Being famous for money 23:37 - Regrets 24:37 - A rich life, but not easy 24:58 - Advice to get started 26:55 - Ship owning business 29:10 - Greatest satisfaction in life
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Michael Hudner argues that building a meaningful life requires following genuine passion over financial metrics, and that the modern money culture—where celebrity derives from wealth alone rather than character—is fundamentally unhealthy for individuals and society.
- Most people confuse lust with dream; only passion sustained Hudner through the challenges of building a shipping empire and overcoming personal tragedy
- Money functions as energy and additional colors on a palette, not as a measure of success or source of identity
- The replacement of character-based civic virtue with wealth-based celebrity is a destructive cultural shift happening globally
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Shipping assets in favorable market cycles generate extraordinary cash flow ('like water out of a hydrant'), creating both exceptional returns and the temptation to overextend capacity or fail to reduce risk properly.
“the cash is coming out of these ships like water out of a hydrant and and last thing is what is one story from running your own shipping company”
Capital is universally available to entrepreneurs and operators with demonstrated competence; financial partners actively seek operational people to deploy capital with, so lack of personal wealth is not a barrier to starting a large-scale business.
“whether you're buying housing or cars or real estate or businesses you don't even have to have the money yourself you can do what you do which is fundrais I had no money I still had some college loans the world has a lot of capital looking for a home and there's a natural potentially stressful relationship between operating partners and Financial Partners the financial partners need operating people”
The obsession with discussing or displaying wealth—such as bragging about the price of wine—is ultimately meaningless because the value is consumed and excreted; the modern celebrity culture that celebrates people merely for having money, divorced from character or achievement, is a destructive cultural shift.
“when you start seeing people who can only talk about money and people who can only think about money and they want to tell you how expensive the wine was that they had last night I'm telling you drink it tonight pee it in the morning I mean I don't care what you're dealing with that's the that's the story nobody no nobody's doing it any different”
To find a lucrative career or business path, try different things without precommitment, observe what gives you pleasure and what you're drawn to, and increase your involvement and productivity in areas where you feel natural attraction.
“try things and see what gives you pleasure in doing it and then consider following that ramping up your involvement and ramping up your productivity in that area because I think that's a great start I mean would you out with a woman that you weren't attracted to what's the point you know there are things that we're attracted to you just have to let yourself find out and getting to know can be as important as getting to yes so you save yourself a lot of trouble”
The tension between financial partners and operational partners in shipping (and other capital-intensive industries) is inherent: financial people want to exit and realize returns, while operators want to keep running and growing; the two sides need each other but have conflicting goals.
“the financial partners need operating people I mean if you were a guy downtown New York doing Financial deals you can't go buy a ship you can write the check and then you'll go broke you won't know what the hell to do”
Choosing a career or life path based on passion (intrinsic motivation) is compensation that sustains you through difficult work, whereas pursuing external rewards alone (money, approval) leads to burnout, especially during hard periods.
“if you have a passion for something it is a form of compensation I mean to some extent you I mean you got to have cheeseburger money but it it's its own it is its own reward and it gets you through the hard times when you're just working because you're making money at it”
You don't get over losing a child but you learn to live with it; you learn to carry the grief as part of a transformed identity rather than resolving or moving past it.
“you don't get over losing a child but you learn to live with it”
Finance capitalism is a double-edged sword: it creates value, wealth, and innovation, but it has become severely skewed and is running wild without sufficient social constraints or accountability.
“finance capitalism is a double-edged sword you know a lot of goods come out of it because things have been done to create more value more wealth Finance more Innovation but boy we're getting it's so heavily skewed now it's just crazy”
Daniel K. Ludwig, the largest non-public ship owner at the end of World War I with over 100 ships, wrote off $500 million on his ambitious Amazon River pulp project in his later years, but called it a success because 'we did it'—valuing the attempt and ambition itself over the financial outcome.
“Daniel K Ludwick at the end of World War I he was probably the biggest trip owner nonc nonpublic in the world had over 100 ships guy had about an eighth grade education he had built in Japan two structures one was a power plant and one was a pulp Mill and he had them floated over across the Pacific up the amazon and set on pilings on the river jar and he was growing eucalyptus trees a fast growing tropical tree to turn them into pulp and then the Brazil some Brazilian political people started trying to move in on them”
Operating a shipping business requires actual operational expertise and knowledge—you cannot succeed as a financial investor alone because ships operate in fundamentally hostile environments (extreme weather, saltwater, complex machinery) with no guidebooks available.
“you can't do it as a novice somebody's got to know what the hell they're doing on the operating side so this is we you know we're we need each other but then the you know I'd like to own ships and keep operating them and the uh the financial people want to get out so that's there you know that that's an inherent tension in any industry financial people operating people but they're looking for you I mean they need us”
When grieving the loss of his son, Hudner experienced emotional pain so severe it became physical pain, and the only way to endure it was to reframe it with perspective—recognizing that not feeling such pain would have negated the meaning of his love for his son, and that the hundreds of people supporting him made it impossible to give up without letting them down.
“for some months the emotional pain was so severe it became physical pain and you want to you don't want to get up in the morning but you get up and then you're standing up you want to fall down on the ground and stay there but you literally you figuratively and somewhat literally you have like hundreds of people standing shoulder-to-shoulder with you who want to help you so you can't just fall back down on the ground because then you're letting them down you're not doing yourself any good not doing my son any good”
Wanting to be helpful to people and acting proactively on empathy is a gift born from surviving difficult experiences, and you shouldn't waste it by being indifferent to others' suffering.
“and I realized we are hostages to love in life you don't get over losing a child but you learn to live with it we moved on from that and had the realization that um we had been given in a sense a very um expensive and painful gift from our son which was um you get your heart enlarged and you become a lot more aware of suffering around you people that are have problems and have challenges and could use help”
Most people have lust or envy for a different life but lack a genuine dream or passion, whereas Hudner had dual passions—the marine environment and financial structures—that few others possessed, and synthesizing these passions into a business was more powerful than either alone.
“most people don't actually they have a lust but they don't have a dream or an Envy I had a passion I mean I loved the marine environment the Marine World I wasn't into it as an environmentalist exactly but I loved being on boats loved the ocean I had a Fascination for what it might be like to go over the horizon”
Escaping W2 income requires keeping expenses down, having an understanding spouse, and willingness to take risks on distressed assets with business partners, which allows entrepreneurial individuals to work for themselves rather than for employers.
“if you got people who are trying to figure out how to do this you got to keep your expenses down it helps if you have an understanding wife if you don't have an understanding wife it's probably better not to have a wife but that's like getting out of W2 income”
Personal and professional tragedies reduce your quotient of concern about status, achievement, or material accumulation very close to zero because you confront what is actually important in life—health, relationships, meaning.
“when you have problems it certainly whatever quotient you were carrying through your life it gets reduced pretty close to zero because you really come in touch with what's important”
Money enables freedom and is comparable to extra colors on an artist's palette—it gives you more options and flexibility—but it is neither a measure of success nor a source of identity or meaning.
“the value of having a lot of cash is that I mean my son very smart comment he made when he was about 20 he said money is energy 20 years old and um I had seen having more Capital as extra colors on a pallet so you're working on a canvas and you can do more things with it”
Pursuing a career primarily for money ('merit badge approach') is self-defeating because it lacks intrinsic motivation, leads to chasing approval and conformity, and prevents autonomous life design.
“I couldn't stand the merit badge approach I'm doing this because I want a merit badge so I can then do that and get another merit badge which a lot of people I'm sure you've seen this a lot of people maybe not the guys you're talking to they've all broken out but most of the world seems to be on that path they're looking for approval which makes you a conformist I'm not saying people should be wildly non-conformists but don't be afraid to be a majority of one”
The shipping business is capital-intensive, supply-and-demand driven, and profits come primarily from cash flow generated by ships (rental income) rather than asset appreciation, making timing and market conditions critical to success.
“it's a hard asset business we're renting space in a Marketplace and we're subject to the laws of supply and demand and I mean and then some much greater volatility than real estate but it's comparable and it's Capital intensive”
Hudner's greatest satisfaction is not any single story or outcome but the fact that he did it—he lived according to his vision rather than settling for safety, which aligns with Ludwig's statement that 'you got to be a bit of a dreamer in life.'
“if you like this video you are going to love this video right up here where I talk to 5 millionaires over the age of 80 and ask them if the money was worth all the sacrifices they made... my greatest satis action is not a single story but the fact that I did it”
Entrepreneurship enables selective client relationships and the ability to decline business opportunities, which improves quality of life compared to high-pressure professions where time is the primary constraint and you cannot choose your associates.
“one of the advantages of Entrepreneurship is if you get things rolling you can decide who you want to do business with that's very good for dealing with the quotient in your life like if you were in a big Law Firm I don't want to work with that guy well hey you want to get paid you know it's we don't have to do business with that guy and if that means we make a little less we have a better life for it I mean I'm I'm not trying to be I love it utopian but you got to think about the cost benefit of things”
When facing severe loss, people are supported not by their individual will but by the collective presence of others ('hundreds of people standing shoulder-to-shoulder'), which creates moral obligation to survive and persist for their sake.
“you figuratively and somewhat literally you have like hundreds of people standing shoulder-to-shoulder with you who want to help you so you can't just fall back down on the ground because then you're letting them down you're not doing yourself any good not doing my son any good”
Michael Hudner transitioned from a Wall Street real estate finance job to pioneering financial vehicles for international shipping by applying real estate finance concepts to ships, treating ships as floating real estate and targeting real estate investors as potential ship investors.
“we pioneered a number of financial vehicles for international shipping in the New York Capital markets things that hadn't been done before and they were built on my experience in the real estate Finance business for six years plus the benefit of the legal training I got although I never practiced and I had no intention to practice but we basically took real estate Finance Concepts and applied them to ships”
Over his career, Hudner bought and sold over 140 ships with a combined dollar value well over a billion dollars, with the largest single deal being the purchase of the Canadian Pacific Fleet comprising 19 ships in one contract for approximately $165-170 million in 1988 in a soft market.
“the dollar value of the 140 plus ships I never added it all up but it must have been well over a billion dollars”
Parenthood entails two basic jobs: protect and provide for one's family; failure to do these (particularly the psychological support function) betrays the child and invalidates the parent-child relationship.
“I had two basic jobs which was to uh protect my family and provide for them”
Understanding your stomach/intuition ('your stomach tells you things that your brain won't let through') is more reliable for discovering authentic career fit than rational analysis alone, suggesting somatic wisdom precedes cognitive justification.
“your stomach tells you things that your brain won't let through if you have a passion for something it is a form of compensation”
Hudner did not want to be told what to do and realized through maturation in his twenties that he was not suited to working for someone else, not from a desire to control others but from a foundational need for autonomy in how he directed his efforts.
“as part of the maturation process in your 20s I realized I'm not really cut out to work for somebody it's not because I want to tell everybody else what to do I don't have any interest in that actually but I don't want to be told what to do I and then you have to accept the consequences of that”
Material wealth beyond basic comfort (what Hudner calls 'cheeseburger money') should not be pursued as a primary goal if it requires sacrificing work that provides intrinsic satisfaction or relationships that provide meaning.
“if you have a passion for something it is a form of compensation I mean to some extent you I mean you got to have cheeseburger money but it it's its own it is its own reward”
Modern young people expect to immediately have what their parents accumulated over a generation of work, not understanding that wealth accumulation takes time, which creates unrealistic expectations and potential for dissatisfaction.
“I see the kids today they all think they should have what their parents have and their parents might have spent a generation working for it and that's not true of everybody some people are born with it that wasn't my case”
Hudner didn't expect his son to respect him if he gave up or folded when faced with his son's illness, emphasizing that parental responsibility includes maintaining strength through crisis to honor your child and your family.
“I wouldn't expect my son to have respected me if I fold it up on him I had two basic jobs which was to uh protect my family and provide for them”
Hudner has lived a rich, rewarding, and satisfying life despite numerous mistakes, and he is grateful for being born in a country where such opportunities are more readily available than anywhere else.
“I had an incredibly rich life not easy but a rich rewarding satisfying life and I'm grateful and I'm grateful to have been born in this country where these opportunities are found more readily than any place else”
Looking at New York's wealthy lifestyle (luxury apartments, restaurants, expensive goods) from the outside, Hudner realized it wasn't for him—suggesting his values and desires were misaligned with the status-seeking materialism that drives much of urban wealth culture.
“when I saw the Life Style in New York I realized this isn't really for me”
Being a 'majority of one'—holding positions that diverge from conventional opinion—is uncomfortable but healthier than conformism, though Hudner does not advocate for wildly non-conformist posturing.
“I'm not saying people should be wildly non-conformists but don't be afraid to be a majority of one”
His father's father (Hudner's great-grandfather) said 'the people who say they never had a chance never took a chance,' establishing a family legacy of viewing opportunity as something you must actively seize rather than wait for.
“and my father's father had a saying apparently because I never knew him he died before I was born born in 1862 he said the people who say they never had a chance never took a chance”
Hudner was overly focused on work during his early marriage, took excessive risks in the late 1980s, which nearly caused a split from his first wife, but they reconciled and recommitted to the relationship as their reunion project.
“I worked on first of we had a little 16 and 1/2t boat when I was a kid five miles from here great but then I worked on boats two summers when I was in college so I got paid to learn how to run a big boat I mean you know 47 feet 57 feet we one guy did nothing but crws with his wife and the other guy only wanted to race so um it just always I responded to that uh and I have a boat I got to say 60ft sailboat I've had the boat for 32 years and it was built for me and my first wife in fact I I did everything I said you shouldn't do I was working too hard I was taking a lot of risks in the late 80s looked like we'd split up and then we go back together which was the way it should have been”
Getting to know whether something is right for you is as important as getting to yes in career choice; many people skip the exploration phase out of fear and end up in unsuitable careers.
“Getting to know can be as important as getting to yes so you save yourself a lot of trouble”
Hudner does not regret his work intensity, but recognizes the balancing act between work and other goods (relationships, health, presence) requires constant negotiation and is an ongoing tension rather than a solved problem.
“I I don't have regrets about that I mean I can say there were times when work got in the way of things you know you're it's a constant Balancing Act in life you can't do all things at all times and I'm very I'm totally at peace with uh how I lived my life recognizing numerous mistakes”
Hudner's son became schizophrenic at age 19, died in a car accident at age 23 after a paranoid episode while driving, and Hudner's wife died of glioblastoma during their 40th year of marriage, representing severe personal tragedies that informed his later philosophy on meaning and purpose.
“my son became ill with schizophrenia when he was 19 he died at 23”
Hudner's 60-foot sailboat, custom-built 32 years ago for him and his first wife, was the primary material possession driven by genuine desire rather than status, reflecting his lifelong passion for maritime environments and long-distance sailing.
“the one material thing I had a desire for I mean it's a slight exaggeration but not too much when I was younger was to have a cruising boat that would allow me to get away I worked on first of we had a little 16 and 1/2t boat when I was a kid five miles from here great but then I worked on boats two summers when I was in college so I got paid to learn how to run a big boat I mean you know 47 feet 57 feet”
Balancing life requires understanding that you cannot maximize all dimensions simultaneously—you must accept trade-offs and not attempt to do everything at all times, analogous to stretching an elastic band to its limit without breaking it.
“life is uh you live it like an elastic band and you can take it out to the limits and you can hold it there for a while but you're got to let it come back in then you can take it out again but if you take it out too far you're going to break it and then it's done and you can't live in here so I think people have to be mindful of that then you can work it out but if you try to do all the things all the time I don't see how that works”
Hudner and his first wife chose not to have a third child (they already had two 'perfect children'), which is presented as a decision made consciously as part of their reconciliation and commitment to balance rather than continuous expansion.
“we go back together which was the way it should have been and as our Getting Back Together project we already had two perfect children so didn't need to go for three”
Wall Street in the 1970s-80s was structured so that employees of finance subsidiaries could own stock in the firm, creating partial equity participation for operational staff below the level of named partner.
“it was a subsidiary of East M Dillan and Union Securities and then as employees we got to own some of the stock”