
The Secret To Maintaining Dollar Dominance | Joseph Wang & Austin Campbell LIVE @ DAS
What this covers
In this episode, Joseph Wang and Austin Campbell join the show to discuss their overview of macro after the latest FOMC meeting, the EM-ification of the United States, and how stablecoins play into the continuation of US dollar hegemony. We also delve into support for stablecoin legislation, the case against the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve & US sovereign wealth fund, and more. Enjoy! __ Follow Joseph: https://x.com/FedGuy12 Follow Austin: https://x.com/CampbellJAustin Follow Felix: https://x.com/fejau_inc Follow Forward Guidance: https://twitter.com/ForwardGuidance Follow Blockworks: https://twitter.com/Blockworks_ Forward Guidance Newsletter: https://blockworks.co/newsletter/forwardguidance Forward Guidance Telegram: https://t.me/+CAoZQpC-i6BjYTEx — Forward Guidance Audience Survey: https://forward-guidance.beehiiv.com/forms/109bcbf7-0948-43b8-be8d-5390a5198125 — Join us at Permissionless IV June 24th - 26th. https://blockworks.co/event/permissionless-iv __ Ledger, the world leader in digital asset security for consumers and enterprises, proudly sponsors Forward Guidance, where traditional finance meets crypto. As Ledger celebrates a decade of securing 20% of the world’s crypto assets, it offers a secure gateway for those entering digital finance. Buy a LEDGER™ device today and protect your assets with top-tier security technology. Buy now on Ledger.com. — Timestamps: 00:00 Macro & Crypto Colliding 01:05 Overview of Macro and FOMC Meeting 04:23 US EM-ification 09:35 What is Good Fiscal & Monetary Policy? 13:07 Stablecoins and US Treasury Demand 18:12 Stablecoin Legislation 22:56 Reinventing Money Market Funds 31:27 Strategic Bitcoin Reserve & Sovereign Wealth Fund 35:21 Final Thoughts __ Disclaimer: Nothing discussed on Forward Guidance should be considered as investment advice. Please always do your own research & speak to a financial advisor before thinking about, thinking about putting your money into these crazy markets.
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As macro policy becomes increasingly uncertain and fiscally driven, cryptocurrency and blockchain technologies—particularly stablecoins—are emerging as innovative solutions to extend US dollar hegemony, fund Treasury deficits, and restructure financial markets in ways that traditional monetary policy alone cannot achieve.
- Stablecoins backed by Treasuries can directly distribute US dollar assets to foreign citizens, bypassing capital controls and competing with other reserve currencies
- The shift from unsecured (LIBOR) to secured (SOFR) standards, combined with stablecoin regulation, creates a more stable and efficient monetary system
- Traditional fiscal and monetary policy tools are constrained; innovative instruments like stable coins represent a structural market shift comparable to the post-2008 rise of government money market funds
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There is a very significant international preference for the US dollar at the base level among people globally, comparable to Churchill's observation on democracy—'the worst currency except for all the others'—making the dollar the preferred unit of account and medium of exchange for unbanked populations.
“there's actually a very significant preference still for the US dollar internationally compared to almost any other currency at the base level for people, right? It's a little bit like Churchill on democracy, where the dollar is the worst currency except for all the others.”
Stablecoins backed by Treasury assets are inherently safer than bank deposits because the only way they can fail in a disorderly fashion is if the US Treasury itself becomes insolvent, whereas banks fail routinely due to their own credit risk.
“the only way you're going to have a stablecoin collapse in disorderly fashion, unlike say banks, which actually fail way more often, is if the US Treasury itself is the problem given the collateral... you can build these things correctly to the point that... knock on wood, so long as the Treasury doesn't blow itself up, is probably in favor of systemic stability.”
The NYDFS regulated stablecoin BUSD reached $23.5 billion at peak before being shut down, lost its entire value over 3 months, yet caused no market disruption and resulted in zero losses to holders because it was backed by Treasury assets.
“So, in the NYDFS has been regulating stablecoins since 2018 and basically been using a framework very similar to what's in the genius bill. And they had a stablecoin that was, I think, at the peak like 23.5 billion dollars, which was BUSD, that went basically to zero in the course of 3 months when it was shut down. And what happened in markets? Nothing. Right? And who lost money on that stablecoin? Nobody.”
A properly constructed stablecoin is essentially a box holding T-bills and Treasuries, represented on a blockchain, requiring only internet access and something of value to exchange for it, making it available to unbanked populations globally.
“a properly constructed stable coin is just a box that basically holds stuff that looks like T-bills and Treasuries. Very simple. And it's just represented on a blockchain. Now, the important part of that is that there's two criteria, right, for you to get your hands on that. One is that you've got the internet, and the other one is that you have something of value to exchange for it.”
When Paxos ran BUSD stablecoin, citizens in every country in the world except North Korea (which lacks internet access) used the stablecoin, demonstrating global demand for dollar-denominated digital assets at the retail level.
“when I was at Paxos and running BUSD, the only country in the world where I was relatively certain no citizens owned our stable coin was North Korea because it fails that first test of people having access to the internet. Everywhere else they were using it.”
Stablecoins and the Genius Act are structurally equivalent to government money market funds—bankruptcy-remote vehicles that cannot use leverage and can only buy T-bills and engage in repo/reverse repo on government securities, just wrapped on a blockchain.
“stablecoins and the Genius Act are almost literally money market funds, right? If you look at the form factor, it's a bankruptcy remote vehicle inside of a specific legal form factor that can't use leverage, but can buy T-bills and do repo and reverse repo on government securities. I've just described Fidelity's government money market fund, okay? Like literally. It's a money market fund. Um and stablecoins are just a wrapper that gets those onto a blockchain.”
The shift from unsecured lending standards (LIBOR) to secured standards (SOFR backed by Treasury collateral) reduces systemic risk because unsecured lending is risky when banking systems fail, and a secured system with sound collateral (like T-bills) strengthens the dollar's role as reserve currency.
“the standard has moved from an unsecured to a secured system. Uh the reason for that is that one of the things we learned from the Great Financial Crisis is that, you know, unsecured can be very risky. It could have systemic risk. So, when the banking system goes down, you know, all that unsecured stuff that that's not looking too hot, you can lose everything. If we have a secured system and it all sounds like the stablecoins are going to be backed by very sound collateral, so maybe they could be perceived to be secured as well, right? T-bills and and other aspects. So, having a secured standard is something that could further strengthens, I think, the the role and asset's role as a reserve currency and and widespread use.”
The dollar is the worst international currency except for all the others, meaning despite critiques of dollar hegemony and de-dollarization efforts, no viable alternative exists because most currencies are even worse or less accessible.
“there's actually a very significant preference still for the US dollar internationally compared to almost any other currency at the base level for people, right? It's a little bit like Churchill on democracy, where the dollar is the worst currency except for all the others.”
The Fed has moved from a quantity-based approach (controlling the monetary base) to an administered rates approach (setting rates on reverse repo, fed funds, and standing repo facility); this shift reduces the Fed's ability to fine-tune markets and makes the Fed more dependent on money market participants' behavior.
“the Fed has had a increasingly large footprint in money markets uh in the past, the Fed would try to set interest rates by controlling the amount of reserves in the financial system, but now it's very much done through administered rates. On the lower bound, it's reverse repo facility. On the upper bound, there there is a standing repo facility that could potentially put some some sort of a ceiling.”
The United States has begun trading with EMification characteristics—specifically, when the Fed cut short-end rates, long-end yields rose (inverting normal policy transmission), and corporate treasuries now have lower borrowing costs at the 30-year maturity than the federal government, indicating markets perceive corporations as less likely to default than the US.
“when we cut rates in the short end of the curve and the long end of the curve went up. Right? Like I remember having a long discussion with a friend of mine who traded Brazil about that exact behavior there. And the other thing I would point people towards is we now have corporates in the United States funding cheaper at the 30-year point than the federal government. Right? So, let me let me repeat that. Corporations are less likely to go bankrupt than the federal government.”
Stablecoins are structurally equivalent to money market funds—bankruptcy-remote vehicles that hold primarily Treasury securities and repo on government securities—but represented on blockchains, making them digital wrappers around traditional government money market instruments.
“stablecoins and the Genius Act are almost literally money market funds, right? If you look at the form factor, it's a bankruptcy remote vehicle inside of a specific legal form factor that can't use leverage, but can buy T-bills and do repo and reverse repo on government securities. I've just described Fidelity's government money market fund, okay? Like literally. It's a money market fund. Um and stablecoins are just a wrapper that gets those onto a blockchain.”
Recessions are not necessarily bad and should not be immunized against using monetary or fiscal policy; creative destruction serves an economic function, and using policy to hide volatility only delays and concentrates it (as exemplified by 2008).
“I don't think recessions are necessarily a bad thing. Right, creative destruction exists for a reason. Um you don't want an economy where you have relatively inefficient and failing firms that just stumble along forever as zombies. Right, that's that's not a good way to run things. And using monetary policy, right, or or fiscal, quite frankly, to immunize your markets against volatility doesn't get rid of the volatility, it just hides it. And then eventually it's going to show up all at once. See, for instance, 2008.”
US corporate bond yields are now lower than federal government bond yields at the 30-year maturity, implying that the corporate sector is perceived as less likely to default than the federal government.
“we now have corporates in the United States funding cheaper at the 30-year point than the federal government. Right? So, let me let me repeat that. Corporations are less likely to go bankrupt than the federal government.”
The Fed virtually ended quantitative tightening, reducing the pace from approximately $50 billion per month on treasuries to $5 billion per month, effectively stopping balance sheet shrinkage.
“the Fed effectively ended quantitative tightening uh which is to say that they are not going to be shrinking their balance sheet at least as much. Now, quantitative tightening was going on at a pace of about 50 25 billion a month for treasuries. Now, it's just 5 billion, which is really small. I I would say QT has virtually ended.”
Post-2008, there has been a structural shift away from opaque, credit-risky bank deposits and risky short-term commercial paper toward government-guaranteed money market funds (which are growing) or balance sheets of the largest banks perceived as too-big-to-fail.
“one of the trends we've seen post-2008 writ large before we even get to blockchains is a move away from opaque credit risky bank deposits as something people prefer and a move away from risky short-term commercial paper for which you don't pick up much yield. That was prime money market funds and they've been shrinking into one of two things, which is government-guaranteed money market funds, which have been growing, or the balance sheets of the largest banks because there's this perception that if Wells Fargo fails, the government's going to bail them out.”
Fed intervention in money markets through administered rates (reverse repo facility and standing repo facility) creates greater market stability and safety for money market participants by providing an implicit backstop.
“the Fed has had a increasingly large footprint in money markets uh in the past, the Fed would try to set interest rates by controlling the amount of reserves in the financial system, but now it's very much done through administered rates... when the Fed is active in the money markets, that creates greater stability and that actually makes anyone who's in the money markets a bit safer”
The Treasury is managing debt issuance heavily weighted toward short-duration T-bills (Yellen Treasury and Biden administration trend), creating a rolling refinancing problem where countries must identify new marginal buyers of longer-duration debt.
“the Yellen Treasury and the Biden administration heavily weight T-bill issuance. So, now we're getting into this dynamic where we have a lot of the short duration that just keeps having to be, you know, rolled and and refinanced here.”
The Fed ended quantitative tightening (QT) at the March 2025 FOMC meeting, reducing the monthly Treasury balance sheet runoff from approximately $25 billion to $5 billion, effectively halting the shrinkage of the Fed's balance sheet.
“for for you guys, rejoice because like yesterday the Fed effectively ended quantitative tightening uh which is to say that they are not going to be shrinking their balance sheet at least as much. Now, quantitative tightening was going on at a pace of about 50 25 billion a month for treasuries. Now, it's just 5 billion”
Campbell observes that post-2008, there has been a trend away from opaque, credit-risky bank deposits and risky short-term commercial paper toward government-guaranteed money market funds or bank deposits at the largest banks perceived as too-big-to-fail.
“one of the trends we've seen post-2008 writ large before we even get to blockchains is a move away from opaque credit risky bank deposits as something people prefer and a move away from risky short-term commercial paper for which you don't pick up much yield. That was prime money market funds and they've been shrinking into one of two things, which is government-guaranteed money market funds, which have been growing, or the balance sheets of the largest banks because there's this perception that if Wells Fargo fails, the government's going to bail them out.”
Joseph Wang characterizes a stablecoin as basically a shadow bank or potentially a more efficient form of money market fund that could be more liquid than actual money market fund shares depending on adoption.
“So, from what I hear, the description of a stablecoin is basically like a like it's basically like a shadow bank, right? It's like a money market fund. It's it's a maybe a potentially more efficient form of money market fund that, depending on how the adoption is for these stablecoins, could be more liquid than actual money market fund shares.”
Campbell cites NYDFS regulation of stablecoins since 2018 using a framework similar to the Genius Bill, and notes that BUSD reached a peak of $23.5 billion but went to zero in 3 months when shut down with no market disruption and no losses to users.
“We have a live example of this, which I think people forget. So, in the NYDFS has been regulating stablecoins since 2018 and basically been using a framework very similar to what's in the genius bill. And they had a stablecoin that was, I think, at the peak like 23.5 billion dollars, which was BUSD, that went basically to zero in the course of 3 months when it was shut down. And what happened in markets? Nothing. Right? And who lost money on that stablecoin? Nobody. Right?”
Foreign governments have been reducing their holdings of US Treasury debt, but the countervailing trend is that people in those countries have been increasing their holdings of US Treasuries through stablecoins, creating a shift from governmental to retail Treasury holders.
“a lot of foreign governments have been reducing their holdings of stable coins, and the great irony of that is that the countervailing weight is that the people in those countries are increasing their holdings of US Treasuries through stable coins.”
Crypto is speed-running the history of traditional financial products—mistakes that took decades in finance to make and learn from are being repeated in crypto in compressed timescales.
“crypto, like in another parallel, is just speed-running the history of traditional financial products. Like I I was having a conversation with somebody about Terraform Labs, and he's like, 'Isn't it weird that we like we built this unique thing and it failed?' And I'm like, 'It's not unique.' Right? This is self-referential equity note. There's nothing in crypto I haven't already seen a French quant blow up, is what I said to him.”
The Federal Reserve is committed to being reactive and late in its policy response due to unprecedented uncertainty from simultaneous fiscal policy changes (DOGE), immigration enforcement, regulatory shifts across energy and banking, and trade policy changes that will be clarified on April 2nd.
“the Fed is basically committed uh to be reactive, committed to be basically be late no matter what happens. So, what they're going to do is that they're going to wait and see what happens, look at the data, and then react.”
The US is now trading more like an emerging market (EM) due to fiscal dominance over monetary policy, evidenced by the phenomenon where short-end rate cuts caused long-end yields to rise—a behavior normally associated with EM capital flows.
“lately the United States itself has started to trade more like an EM sort of exposure. And maybe the best example of this was when we cut rates in the short end of the curve and the long end of the curve went up.”
Tether is probably the seventh-largest buyer of US Treasuries globally and growing, and if proper stablecoin legislation passes in the US enabling larger and more sophisticated financial institutions (like Fidelity, BlackRock, JP Morgan) to issue stablecoins, these institutions would become major Treasury buyers.
“Tether is probably the I think I saw the stat today, the seventh largest buyer of Treasuries globally now and growing. And so, if we pass stable coin legislation in the United States, you have larger and more sophisticated financial institutions that are able to issue these. Cuz, look, whether you trust Tether or not, most people probably trust, I don't know, Fidelity, right, BlackRock, JP Morgan to manage these things well.”
Creative destruction—allowing inefficient firms to fail—is economically healthy because it reallocates resources to productive uses; using monetary and fiscal policy to suppress volatility and prevent recessions does not eliminate volatility, it hides and defers it until a larger crisis (e.g., 2008).
“I don't think recessions are necessarily a bad thing. Right, creative destruction exists for a reason. Um you don't want an economy where you have relatively inefficient and failing firms that just stumble along forever as zombies. Right, that's that's not a good way to run things. And using monetary policy, right, or or fiscal, quite frankly, to immunize your markets against volatility doesn't get rid of the volatility, it just hides it. And then eventually it's going to show up all at once. See, for instance, 2008.”
If stablecoin legislation (the Genius Act) passes and larger financial institutions like Fidelity, BlackRock, and JP Morgan are permitted to issue stablecoins, the combination of institutional trust and blockchain distribution could fundamentally restructure global currency hierarchies by enabling citizens to opt out of local currencies at scale, potentially destroying all but G7/G8 currencies within 30 years.
“if we pass stable coin legislation in the United States, you have larger and more sophisticated financial institutions that are able to issue these. Cuz, look, whether you trust Tether or not, most people probably trust, I don't know, Fidelity, right, BlackRock, JP Morgan to manage these things well. And that means, whether other countries like it or not, which is kind of an important point on its own, we can now sell Treasuries directly to citizens in other countries and let them opt out of their local system and local currency into US dollars at size.”
The Federal Reserve is committed to being reactive and late in its monetary policy response because of simultaneous uncertainty around fiscal policy, immigration enforcement, regulatory changes, and trade policy, with two rate cuts priced in for 2025 despite potential for more aggressive cuts if economic data deteriorates.
“the Fed is basically committed uh to be reactive, committed to be basically be late no matter what happens...the market is only pricing in two cuts this year, which is also what the Fed guided towards at their dot plot”
The House has had bipartisan support for stablecoin legislation for a long time; the limiting factor was Senate Democrats (specifically Elizabeth Warren and Sherrod Brown chairing Senate banking), who were absolute blockers; with Republicans now controlling the Senate and these blockers out of the way, the Genius Act could have approximately 70 votes in the Senate.
“I think there's been bipartisan support for stable coin legislation in the House for a long time...The change is the Senate flipping Republican because there's nobody in this country who hates changes to the financial system more than Elizabeth Warren...when the Democrats and the specific Democrats, so this is not Democrats writ large, it's literally Elizabeth Warren and Sherrod Brown, were in charge of Senate banking, they were an absolute blocker on legislation. The fact that they are out of the way means that if they put the Genius Act to a vote today in the Senate and it could actually get to the floor now, I think there's 70-ish votes for it.”
The administration's trade policy goals—domestic manufacturing and industrial capacity rebuilding for security reasons—have been successfully executed by restrictive-trade countries like China, which lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty, suggesting a viable path for improving US economic position compared to current state.
“if you look across the world, other countries that have very restrictive trade policies, like China, for example, have been able to build a very successful manufacturing economy, right? Literally lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. So, there is a path towards this that could be leave leave the United States in a much better position than it is today.”
The EM boom-bust cycle is occurring in the United States now: foreign capital rushes into the US to harvest high interest rates, and one day they all rush out (as is happening with repatriation into Europe for rearmament and China for tech), causing US financial markets to tank—exactly the EM dynamic.
“you have these tremendous uh boom and bust cycles where as you have, let's say, high interest rates in an emerging market, foreign capital rushes in, harvest those higher returns, and then, you know, one day they all rush out...So, this past month you have uh a huge amount of repatriation of foreign flows moving out of the US into places like Europe because of uh rearmament. Uh maybe to China where there's been a lot of interest in the tech sector there. So, you kind of see uh the US financial markets tanking because foreign capital leaving”
Addressing federal government fraud (estimated at $500B annually by GAO under Biden administration) and reallocating misallocated resources through market discipline would improve long-term growth; restrictive trade policies (like China's) have successfully rebuilt manufacturing and lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty, suggesting a path forward for the US if properly executed.
“the Government Accountability Office under the Biden administration gave an estimate that there could be as much as $500 a year in fraud in in the federal government, right? So, if we were to have that to be better distributed, you know, that's a good thing. And, of course, having a recession, we move some resources from where they're poorly used to where they could be better used, that's better for long-term growth, right?”
In 2018, US equity markets sold off 20% from peak to trough with daily selling pressure and real panic, but markets began pricing in significant rate cuts due to recession fears, creating a flight-to-safety bid that put downward pressure on the entire yield curve.
“in 2018 uh the markets were probably down 20% from from peak to trough. Basically sold every single day into December and there was some real panic uh everywhere. But um at that time the markets began to price in a lot more rate cuts because they were afraid of recession or or something worse”
Joseph Wang notes that the administration has stated a policy of charging a fee or imposing sanctions on any country attempting to use an alternative to the US dollar (reference to BRICS currency), though he questions the effectiveness of this approach.
“All the president has said, BRICS, if you want to use a new currency, we're just going to charge you a fee or sanction you 100% so that you'll never be able to do that again. So, I don't know how effective that would be.”
The Government Accountability Office under the Biden administration estimated $500 billion per year in federal government fraud; better distribution of these resources and allowing resource reallocation via recession would improve long-term growth prospects.
“the Government Accountability Office under the Biden administration gave an estimate that there could be as much as $500 a year in fraud in in the federal government, right? So, if we were to have that to be better distributed, you know, that's a good thing. And, of course, having a recession, we move some resources from where they're poorly used to where they could be better used, that's better for long-term growth, right?”
Austin Campbell argues that the single most important legislation Congress could pass over the past 10 years and next 10 years is a stable coin bill, potentially marking the moment when the US destroyed all but G8 currencies 30 years forward.
“There is a very significant chance that the single most important thing Congress will do over the past 10 years and next 10 years is pass the stable coin bill. And we could be looking at this 30 years forward as, oh, well, that's the moment where they destroyed all but the G8 currencies, right? Everything else just got completely run over by this being generally available.”
Joseph Wang explains that if the US hits a debt ceiling, bills come due but the government cannot issue more debt, creating a disruption unless payment prioritization is used to ensure debt service (principal and interest) is paid before other obligations.
“So, what happens if we hit a debt ceiling? Then, bills come due, but we can't issue more debt to to uh to to pay to finance that. Uh in that case, so there is actually the House subpoenaed documents from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, and they were gaming it out what they could do. Uh what they could do is something called payment prioritization. So, the United States, again, all this tax revenue and all this expenditures, you got to pay, you know, military, you got to pay, you know, grants and stuff like that, you know, uh every everywhere. What they would do, the the amount of inflows from taxes is more than enough to cover uh principal and interest for Treasuries.”
The shift from LIBOR (unsecured lending standard) to SOFR (secured lending standard tied to Treasuries and repo) strengthens dollar hegemony because secured systems reduce counterparty risk, and stablecoins backed by Treasuries further extend this secured framework globally.
“the standard has moved from an unsecured to a secured system. Uh the reason for that is that one of the things we learned from the Great Financial Crisis is that, you know, unsecured can be very risky... If we have a secured system and it all sounds like the stablecoins are going to be backed by very sound collateral, so maybe they could be perceived to be secured as well, right? T-bills and and other aspects. So, having a secured standard is something that could further strengthens, I think, the the role and asset's role as a reserve currency and and widespread use.”
Banks currently extract an implicit subsidy from savers by paying zero yield on deposits while lending that money at profitable rates; stablecoins will force banks to compete for deposits at fair market rates, redistributing the subsidy from borrowers back to savers and reducing indebtedness.
“the banks have decided, okay, well, we're going to offer the following deal to consumers. We pay you zero on your deposits. We're going to go lend that money to other people, often quite risky, and when that works, we make a ton of money and pay ourselves huge bonuses. And when it doesn't work, well, you're going to lose your money on the deposits. That's not fundamentally a great economic arrangement for people who want to use the system for payments, but they're stuck with it cuz you've only got banks.”
Joseph Wang notes that the US traditionally does not have sovereign wealth funds like Norway because the US lacks trade surpluses or natural resource windfalls that accumulate foreign currency, making a sovereign wealth fund structurally unusual for the US.
“Uh so, I guess I'll on the US sovereign wealth fund, you know, at first blush, it sounds like a very strange proposition, right? Usually, countries that have sovereign wealth funds uh have tremendous trade surpluses or some kind of windfall from their natural resources, like Norway, for example. Uh they have all sorts of oil and gas. They earn a lot of hard currency that they deploy for the benefit of their citizens. But, in the US, obviously, that's that's not the situation here.”
The Mar-a-Lago Accord (described in Stephen Miran's paper and implemented as White House policy) proposes the US offer security guarantees to allied countries in exchange for those countries purchasing US debt, addressing demand for duration.
“The Mar-a-Lago Accord comes from a paper written by Stephen Miran, who is now the chairman of the White House Council of economists, also a former guest on Former Guest Guidance. And in that paper, he discusses one of the solutions that the US could deploy to try to create demand for its debt. And that is to say, we go around the world and say, 'Hey, we protect you. Protecting you is very, very expensive. So, how about you share the burden and maybe buy some of our debt?'”
The predictor of support vs opposition to stablecoin legislation is not political party but age; younger politicians across both parties support stablecoins, while older politicians (75+) who believe PayPal is 50/50 likely to be a scam oppose them.
“if you look at people who are opposed to stable coins versus in favor of stable coins, the number one predictor is not political party, it's age. Right, like, Ritchie Torres was on Unchained and talked about this and literally said the problem is the gerontocracy that we have on top of the Democratic Party. Right, cuz if you're 75 years old and still think it's 50/50 that PayPal is a scam, then certainly you're not going to be cool with stable coins.”
The US is shifting policy away from sanctions (which confiscate assets) toward tariffs (which act as tolls/taxes on system access) to maintain dollar hegemony while reducing the risk that countries will abandon the dollar due to asset confiscation fears.
“the way that they're trying to do this is to move away from the sanctions and towards things like tariffs. So, sanctions are different from tariffs in that, let's say, back in the Russia-Ukraine war, you could just confiscate someone's assets, right? If you're if you have if you are sovereign or if you are foreign national, you could you could potentially lose everything. That's very different risk than saying that you'd have to pay an extra 10 or 20% to to use a dollar or to use the US financial system. So, if the US were to shift away from that standard of sanctions trying to basically take someone else's money if we if we don't like you, then you know, moving away from that towards something that's kind of more of a toll, more of a tax, I think that is that is positive for maintaining the dollar's hegemony as a global reserve currency.”
Stablecoins will enable unbundling of banking services—moving away from the dense, integrated modern bank (deposits + mortgages + payments + asset management) toward modular services, improving consumer choice and forcing banks to compete fairly for deposits.
“my personal view is where these things will move is to realign sort of the framework of the financial system and that the current modern bank is actually an incredibly dense entity that didn't really exist like 50 years ago, where your bank would be the one who held your deposits and gave you your mortgage, but like that's it. It wasn't also the biggest source of all your electronic payments and managing all of your assets and like handling all sorts of other stuff. These are incredibly dense entities and one of the things stablecoins will allow for is the unbundling of the banking services, which is not to say the big banks will get smaller, but at least you'll have a better choice of the services that you take from them.”
Joseph Wang describes stablecoins as potentially a more efficient form of money market fund, and if widely adopted, could become more liquid than actual money market fund shares—functioning as a shadow bank more liquid than the traditional shadow banking system.
“So, from what I hear, the description of a stablecoin is basically like a like it's basically like a shadow bank, right? It's like a money market fund. It's it's a maybe a potentially more efficient form of money market fund that, depending on how the adoption is for these stablecoins, could be more liquid than actual money market fund shares.”
A US sovereign wealth fund makes sense if structured to capture upside from companies receiving government subsidies (tax incentives, grants) by taking equity positions or warrants in exchange, allowing the public to benefit from investments they fund; however, execution risk is high.
“the goal of that is to maybe capture some upside on on companies that the US invests in. For example, let's say that the US offers tax incentives or grants to certain companies or certain sectors, maybe they maybe in exchange for these benefits, these companies could offer the sovereign wealth fund some warrants or shares so that, you know, maybe the US is able to benefit for some of the uh subsidies they offer certain sectors or industries. So, in that in that sense, that sounds like a reasonable idea. It will all come down to execution.”
If the US hits the debt ceiling and cannot issue new debt, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York has conducted contingency planning showing the Treasury can use payment prioritization to ensure debt holders (principal and interest) are paid before other obligations, preventing a technical default.
“so there is actually the House subpoenaed documents from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, and they were gaming it out what they could do. Uh what they could do is something called payment prioritization. So, the United States, again, all this tax revenue and all this expenditures, you got to pay, you know, military, you got to pay, you know, grants and stuff like that, you know, uh every everywhere. What they would do, the the amount of inflows from taxes is more than enough to cover uh principal and interest for Treasuries. So, they would prioritize payments to make sure that the debt holders received their interest payments, received their principal”
The primary requirement for global adoption of stablecoins is internet access and something of value to exchange; Tether's global reach demonstrates that North Korea is the only country where stablecoin adoption is prevented by lack of internet access, while every other country has significant stablecoin usage.
“there's two criteria, right, for you to get your hands on that. One is that you've got the internet, and the other one is that you have something of value to exchange for it. So, like, when I was at Paxos and running BUSD, the only country in the world where I was relatively certain no citizens owned our stable coin was North Korea because it fails that first test of people having access to the internet. Everywhere else they were using it.”
The US administration is shifting from sanctions-based coercion (which can confiscate assets and creates existential financial risk) to tariff-based taxation (which imposes a percentage cost) to maintain dollar hegemony; this shift reduces the financial existential risk of holding dollar assets while preserving the cost of avoiding the US financial system.
“the way that they're trying to do this is to move away from the sanctions and towards things like tariffs. So, sanctions are different from tariffs in that, let's say, back in the Russia-Ukraine war, you could just confiscate someone's assets, right? If you're if you are sovereign or if you are foreign national, you could you could potentially lose everything. That's very different risk than saying that you'd have to pay an extra 10 or 20% to to use a dollar or to use the US financial system.”
Cryptocurrency markets are speed-running the history of traditional financial products; crypto projects like Terraform Labs (which failed due to self-referential collateral structures) are not unique—the same failure modes already occurred in traditional finance with French quant strategies, indicating crypto should import financial risk management rather than reinvent lessons.
“crypto, like in another parallel, is just speed-running the history of traditional financial products. Like I I was having a conversation with somebody about Terraform Labs, and he's like, "Isn't it weird that we like we built this unique thing and it failed?" And I'm like, "It's not unique." Right? This is self-referential equity note. There's nothing in crypto I haven't already seen a French quant blow up”
Bitcoin and meme coins have distinct roles in crypto markets: Bitcoin is behaving like digital gold (predictable based on inflation/debasement dynamics), while meme coins function structurally like the art market—their primary economic purpose is money laundering.
“how you can see like the different asset classes in crypto starting to mimic the actual behavior of asset classes in traditional finance. Right? And one that I would say to people, like back to the Bitcoin analogy, it is actually starting to behave like digital gold, which is how you can predict the thing. But, I'll say my most fun analogy that I hit somebody with earlier today is one of the greatest parallels is actually between the art market and the meme coin market because the primary purpose of both is actually still just money laundering.”
Campbell argues that the right approach is to implement sound fiscal and monetary policies based on first principles without regard to whether they produce recessions or growth scares, with the only caveat being to avoid letting consequences get so severe they collapse government institutions.
“I would suggest that I don't think it's a good idea to be thinking about exactly when to catch this thing. I think the right thing to do is think from a first principles basis about what is good fiscal and monetary policy, period, full stop, and just do that, consequences be damned, with the caveat that there is, of course, some level of consequences that is too severe and people start, like, oh, I don't know, collapsing your government and things like that. Don't let it get that far. But the barometer should not be recession or no recession or growth scare or no growth scare. Those things are fine. Right, the thing should be are we putting the country on a long-term like sound set of fiscal and monetary policies that when we look back 20, 30, 40, 50 years forward, we will say laid a foundation for sustainable growth.”
The collision between crypto and traditional finance is valuable because crypto brings technological innovation to banking (blockchain, instant settlement) while banking brings risk management discipline to crypto; neither field alone can achieve both, but integration could.
“the crypto people actually bringing technological innovation to banking at the same time the banking people can bring like, oh, I don't know, risk management to crypto because it would be really nice to have a system that has both instead of neither.”
Austin Campbell argues that moving an implicit subsidy from borrowers to savers (through stable coin competition) is positive for the macro picture of a country with significant levels of indebtedness, as it reduces incentives for excessive borrowing and credit expansion.
“And again, if we're thinking about a country that in general has significant levels of indebtedness and trying to figure out why, this sort of market shift is probably not the worst idea.”
Until confidence returns that the US federal deficit will not reach 200% of GDP, market behavior will continue to resemble emerging markets rather than developed markets.
“until people have confidence that the deficit will not be like 200% of GDP, then all of this behavior gets much more like you would expect from EM countries than the US.”
The Fed is in a no-win position: if it cuts rates, it loses control of the long end (yields rise); if it raises rates, it craters the economy but may stabilize the long end. This is the core constraint imposed by fiscal dominance.
“And that's why they're very reactive because if you cut, you're going to control the short end and lose control of the long end. If you raise rates, you're going to crater the economy, but maybe the long end looks a little better.”
The Mar-a-Lago Accord strategy would work for some countries but probably not many, as most countries are not highly dependent on US security guarantees, and some would argue the US itself is their greatest security threat; only highly dependent allies like Japan might sign such agreements.
“I think is a strategy that could work for some countries, but probably not very many. If you look across the world, a lot of countries simply aren't very dependent upon the US security umbrella. And I think some of them would actually say that the US is the greatest threat to to their security. But there are countries that are highly dependent upon US security. For example, Japan always been a very good ally of the US, very close military ties. Maybe a country like Japan would be willing to sign up for something like that, a Mar-a-Lago Accord. But, you know, I I think the amount of juice we could squeeze out of this probably isn't that much.”
A US sovereign wealth fund might make sense as a mechanism for the US to capture upside on companies where it provides tax incentives or grants, by requiring those companies to issue warrants or shares to the fund in exchange for subsidies.
“from from what I hear from, say, Secretary Lew, Nick, the the goal of that is to maybe capture some upside on on companies that the US invests in. For example, let's say that the US offers tax incentives or grants to certain companies or certain sectors, maybe they maybe in exchange for these benefits, these companies could offer the sovereign wealth fund some warrants or shares so that, you know, maybe the US is able to benefit for some of the uh subsidies they offer certain sectors or industries. So, in that in that sense, that sounds like a reasonable idea.”
Joseph Wang forecasts a base case scenario that mimics 2018, where a significant market correction triggers expectations of aggressive Fed rate cuts due to recession fears, leading to downward pressure across the yield curve, though he expects longer-dated yields to eventually rise due to EM-ification dynamics.
“my base case what would happen this year is a replay of 2018. Now, the US is uh the US is still I think has a lot of things going for it... But in the event that we do have a significant risk-off event like we did in 2018... the markets began to price in a lot more rate cuts because they were afraid of recession or or something worse. And so, I think that's going to replay right now.”
Bipartisan support for stablecoin legislation in Congress increased not due to ideological shift but because Elizabeth Warren and Sherrod Brown, who blocked legislation when Democrats controlled Senate Banking Committee, were removed from power; the primary predictor of stablecoin opposition is age, not political party.
“the House I think has had the votes for a long time. The change is the Senate flipping Republican because there's nobody in this country who hates changes to the financial system more than Elizabeth Warren.”
A strategic Bitcoin reserve at the federal level while running a fiscal deficit is economically counterproductive because the US is already spending beyond its means; a Bitcoin reserve makes sense only at the state level, in a surplus situation, or not at all because the primary driver of Bitcoin appreciation is continued fiscal spending—creating circular reasoning.
“I am on record of having said in the current environment, I think the Bitcoin strategic reserve is an absolutely pants-on-head stupid idea.”
Wang argues that when the Fed is active in money markets, it creates greater stability and makes anyone operating in money markets safer, and if stablecoin assets are in T-bills and repo, the Fed's backstop makes stablecoin liabilities safer.
“Now, I think these two are related because when the Fed is active in the money markets, that creates greater stability and that actually makes anyone who's in the money markets a bit safer. So, if you are a fund and your assets are in T-bills and repo, you know, you have the Fed there basically backstopping this entire market. That makes on the liability side your stablecoins safer.”
Campbell argues that the discipline of finance, while imperfect, has learned lessons over hundreds or thousands of years, and attempting to reinvent financial products from first principles when existing solutions exist (like looking at a Toyota) is a bad idea in the modern world.
“Um but the idea here, and what I think is important to move the industry forward in a meaningful way, is that the discipline of finance is certainly not perfect, and there's a lot of dumb things that happened there. But, that doesn't mean over the many hundreds of years, thousands of years, that we've been doing it, we haven't learned any lessons. And trying to reinvent a car from first principles when you can just walk outside and look at a Toyota is probably a bad idea right? In the modern world.”
Stablecoin legislation is 'a very significant source of funding for the US Treasury if we do that properly,' suggesting that stablecoin adoption directly translates to increased Treasury demand and financing capacity.
“Obviously, that is a very large source of funding for the US Treasury if we do that properly.”
A properly constructed stablecoin can only collapse disorderly if 'the US Treasury itself is the problem' (given it holds only Treasury collateral), which is unlikely given the Fed's ability to provide liquidity against Treasury collateral.
“you can build these things correctly to the point that the only way you're going to have a stablecoin collapse in disorderly fashion, unlike say banks, which actually fail way more often, is if the US Treasury itself is the problem given the collateral, which is where the Fed providing liquidity is effective because the collateral is collateral you can provide liquidity against.”
Until people have confidence that the deficit will not reach 200% of GDP, all the unusual US financial market behavior (EM-like dynamics, inverse spreads, Fed reactivity) will persist, and this confidence problem drives the entire framework for understanding current macro.
“And all of this comes down to until people have confidence that the deficit will not be like 200% of GDP, then all of this behavior gets much more like you would expect from EM countries than the US.”
A productive future for crypto/blockchain involves banking bringing risk management discipline to crypto while crypto brings technological innovation to banking, creating a system with both rather than neither.
“the other thing that I'm actually hopeful for that we continue to have a collision on is the crypto people actually bringing technological innovation to banking at the same time the banking people can bring like, oh, I don't know, risk management to crypto because it would be really nice to have a system that has both instead of neither.”
Campbell rhetorically asks: 'How about instead of starting a reserve, we just... have we considered spending less money?' as a sarcastic suggestion that the actual solution is fiscal discipline, not asset purchases.
“How about instead of starting a reserve, we just Okay, I know this is going to be shocking. Have we considered spending less money? Right? So, I I think this is sort of the classic, you know, it's like the alcoholic trying not to admit they have a problem about drinking behavior. Like we really just need to get to the core of the problem here, guys.”
Tether is currently the seventh-largest buyer of US Treasuries globally and growing, demonstrating that stablecoins are already functioning as significant Treasury purchasers and marginal buyers of duration.
“Tether is probably the I think I saw the stat today, the seventh largest buyer of Treasuries globally now and growing.”
Campbell cites Ritchie Torres saying the problem is 'the gerontocracy that we have on top of the Democratic Party,' noting that older members who still think PayPal might be a scam are naturally skeptical of stablecoins.
“Ritchie Torres was on Unchained and talked about this and literally said the problem is the gerontocracy that we have on top of the Democratic Party. Right, cuz if you're 75 years old and still think it's 50/50 that PayPal is a scam, then certainly you're not going to be cool with stable coins.”
The Mar-a-Lago Accord, a strategy proposed in a paper by Stephen Miran (now chairman of the White House Council of Economists), would have the US offer military security in exchange for other countries purchasing US Treasury debt; however, this approach has limited applicability because few countries are heavily dependent on US security guarantees.
“The Mar-a-Lago Accord comes from a paper written by Stephen Miran, who is now the chairman of the White House Council of economists... And in that paper, he discusses one of the solutions that the US could deploy to try to create demand for its debt. And that is to say, we go around the world and say, "Hey, we protect you. Protecting you is very, very expensive. So, how about you share the burden and maybe buy some of our debt?"”
A US strategic Bitcoin reserve in the current environment where the US is already spending too much money would be solving the problem by spending even more to buy lottery tickets, which is financially incoherent and not a good idea.
“I am on record of having said in the current environment, I think the Bitcoin strategic reserve is an absolutely pants-on-head stupid idea. Um so, I'll just lay that one out there. And the reason is, let me walk you through the logic, okay? We're spending too much money. And so, the way we're going to solve that is by spending even more money to go buy some lottery tickets. Okay? Any financial advisor would tell you, for the love of God, don't do this.”
Austin Campbell argues that the correct approach to fiscal and monetary policy should be determined from first principles about what is good policy rather than trying to optimize for recession avoidance, with the caveat that policy should not be allowed to reach severity levels causing government collapse.
“I think the right thing to do is think from a first principles basis about what is good fiscal and monetary policy, period, full stop, and just do that, consequences be damned, with the caveat that there is, of course, some level of consequences that is too severe and people start, like, oh, I don't know, collapsing your government and things like that. Don't let it get that far.”
Campbell forecasts that if the Genius Act were put to a vote in the Senate today, it would receive approximately 70 votes, which tells him something important about Democratic positions since there are only about 50 Republicans, meaning ~20 Democrats would vote for it.
“The fact that they are out of the way means that if they put the Genius Act to a vote today in the Senate and it could actually get to the floor now, I think there's 70-ish votes for it. And you'll notice there's only about 50 Republicans, so what does that tell you about the Democrats? Right, I I think it's just the blockers being moved out of the way and the regressive party leadership on technology being pushed aside is giving the younger Democrats a chance to voice their real opinion.”
Large amounts of foreign capital are currently leaving the US and flowing into Europe (due to rearmament) and China (due to tech sector interest), creating a financial market correction by replicating EM boom-and-bust capital flow dynamics.
“you have uh a huge amount of repatriation of foreign flows moving out of the US into places like Europe because of uh rearmament. Uh maybe to China where there's been a lot of interest in the tech sector there. So, you kind of see uh the US financial markets tanking because foreign capital leaving.”
Joseph Wang calls for approximately four rate cuts in 2025, contrasting with the Fed's current dot plot guidance of two cuts and current market pricing of two cuts.
“You're calling for four or so cuts for for 2025 and to your point, the Fed's only at two, the market's around there as well.”
Bitcoin is starting to behave like digital gold, which makes it predictable to analyze from a commodity/store-of-value perspective rather than as a speculative asset.
“the other thing that I think is fun watching macro and crypto collide is how you can see like the different asset classes in crypto starting to mimic the actual behavior of asset classes in traditional finance. Right? And one that I would say to people, like back to the Bitcoin analogy, it is actually starting to behave like digital gold”
The host introduces the topic of Joseph Wang's experience at the New York Fed on the trading desk and in money markets, noting a significant shift from unsecured LIBOR standard to secured SOFR standard in recent years.
“you used to be at the New York Fed, you were on the trading desk there, you were deeply involved in money markets, etc. And, you know, over there for those that aren't aware, but there's been a very very significant shift in recent years over there. You know, we used to be on an unsecured standard, LIBOR, and now we're on a secured standard, SOFR.”
Despite current market weakness and EM-like dynamics, Wang believes the US still has structural advantages—reserve currency status, deep liquid capital markets, and perceived safety—that would prevent full EM-ification from occurring anytime soon.
“the US is still I think has a lot of things going for it. Ultimately, it still has a reserve currency, still the dollar is the international currency of choice. We still have very deep and liquid capital markets and are perceived by many to be a a good destination for capital. So, I don't think we are fully going to um change that anytime soon.”
In recent years, the Yellen Treasury and Biden administration heavily weighted T-bill issuance over longer-dated debt, creating a dynamic where large amounts of short-duration debt constantly need to be rolled and refinanced.
“So, one of the major dynamics that characterizes this EMification that we keep talking about is when a country starts to issue more short duration than long duration. And that has been the theme of the past few years. We've seen that the Yellen Treasury and the Biden administration heavily weight T-bill issuance.”
Austin Campbell asks about the relationship between stablecoins and money market funds, noting that stablecoins, money market funds, and the SOFR system are all related but distinct pieces of a larger infrastructure.
“you know, around that idea of of SOFR and all of that is the great complex of money market funds. And now we're talking about stablecoins. So, you know, where do you see this going? Are are stablecoins just a digital version of of money market funds and is it going to replace everything that is existing over there or, you know, complement it? How does this all start to fit together?”
Campbell notes that sovereign wealth funds typically exist in countries with trade surpluses or natural resource windfalls (like Norway with oil/gas), not in the US which has neither, making a US sovereign wealth fund a strange proposition at first blush.
“Uh so, I guess I'll on the US sovereign wealth fund, you know, at first blush, it sounds like a very strange proposition, right? Usually, countries that have sovereign wealth funds uh have tremendous trade surpluses or some kind of windfall from their natural resources, like Norway, for example. Uh they have all sorts of oil and gas. They earn a lot of hard currency that they deploy for the benefit of their citizens. But, in the US, obviously, that's that's not the situation here.”
The art market and meme coin market are parallel in that their primary purpose is still money laundering, making them structurally equivalent despite technical differences.
“I'll say my most fun analogy that I hit somebody with earlier today is one of the greatest parallels is actually between the art market and the meme coin market because the primary purpose of both is actually still just money laundering.”
The currently high market discount of the likelihood of the administration catching a soft landing reflects the Fed being burned by previous forecast errors and now adopting a reactive, late posture; this creates an asymmetric outcome where downside risks are pricing in the soft landing failure but upside (successful industrial policy) is not.
“the Fed is is really not going to be as important as it used to be. So, I I think that's that's how we summarize the meeting yesterday. Um Austin, so before you got wildly obsessed with stable coins, you did used to be a rates trader. That was your world. So, I'm going to tap on that world for just a little bit here before we get too deep onto the stable coin side of things, but what's your high-level framework for how to think about macro today?”
The Federal Reserve's dot plot from the March 2025 FOMC meeting shows that FOMC members believe unemployment risks are to the downside and inflation risks are to the upside, with very high uncertainty in both directions.
“You can see that the FOMC is really really uncertain as to what the world will look like in the future. Uh in the dot plot basically uh members there say that the risks are to the downside for unemployment and um you know, a very high uncertainty. And for inflation, risks are to the upside and also very high uncertainty.”
There is a contingency plan where the Fed would step in and backstop the Treasury market if the US hits the debt ceiling and cannot issue new debt, so even a debt ceiling breach would not result in Treasury market failure.
“You know, there's actually a secret backup plan that in case the Treasury kind of runs hits a debt ceiling, that the Fed will still step in and backstop it. So, you're good even in that case.”
Joseph Wang assesses that the current administration is staffed with smart people, suggesting they should be given the benefit of the doubt in their policy experimentation despite the disruptive nature of current changes.
“So, there is a path towards this that could be leave leave the United States in a much better position than it is today. I think the market is too dismissive of that, and that is definitely a possibility depending on, you know, depending on many factors, but, you know, with the administration is staffed with smart people, so hopefully we'll get it there.”
Wang believes the market is too dismissive of the administration's policy path and that staffing with smart people could produce a substantially better outcome for the US than its current position.
“I think the market is too dismissive of that, and that is definitely a possibility depending on, you know, depending on many factors, but, you know, with the administration is staffed with smart people, so hopefully we'll get it there.”