Trump, Israel, and the Future of Liberal Democracy — with Ezra Klein | Prof G Conversations

Israel could emerge as a brutal ethnostate ruling over Palestinians without granting them rights, which may be stable in the short term but is neither stable long-term nor morally acceptable, and will have profound negative consequences for Jews worldwide and the meaning of being Jewish.

“I mean it is the case that Israel could emerge as a kind of brutal ethnostate. I mean or maybe is a brutal ethnostate that just rules over this and nobody can really do anything about it. In the long run, I don't think that's stable in the world we live in. But I'm not going to I don't want to tell you that, you know, you cannot have brutal states in modernity. You certainly can. I just think that's a bad thing. I think that it's going to be a bad thing for Jews worldwide. I think it's going to be a bad thing for what it means to be Jewish.”

People who do excellent work and maintain professional influence share a characteristic: they visibly labor over sentences, words, and factchecking, which audiences can sense and respect.

“When you read your stuff, when you listen to your pods, when you read your books, it's just clear. And I think this is a really important lesson for young people, you can tell you just work really [ __ ] hard that you bring it, that you show up, you run through the tape, successes in the last 10%. You just hear it and feel that you are laboring over sentences and words and factchecking”

The book Abundance exceeded expectations in creating sustained discourse—it remained a bestseller 18 weeks after publication and generated backlash from the neoprogressive left focused on corporate power, which Klein didn't anticipate.

“I mean the level of response to it uh surprised me...the fact that it became this huge discourse object that it's, you know, at least as of last week still on the bestseller list, whatever it is 18 weeks later, um, that's been amazing. I didn't expect the backlash from like the I'd call like the neop populace left that we got.”

Ocasio-Cortez faces the challenge that he lacks direct control over NYC taxes and must negotiate with Governor Kathy Hochul, who has stated she will not raise taxes, making his major policy ambitions financially unfeasible.

“a bunch of those policies need a bunch of money. He does not have any control over taxes. he would have to go to Albany and Governor Kathy Hokll who has said she will not raise taxes. So he under virtually any scenario we can see is not going to have the money to do the things he wants to do.”

Mondani's housing strategy has focused heavily on public housing, but New York City has not built public housing at scale in a very long time and may not be able to do so under current laws, regulations, and existing deals without fundamental changes.

“Most of his plans have focused on publicly public housing. Um, which is great. Uh but New York City has not built public housing at that level in a very very long time and whether or not it still can uh is a little bit unknown and whether it can under the kind of laws that it currently has and regulations and deals it has made it probably can't if you don't change those.”

Klein came up through blogging starting when he was a college freshman at UC Santa Cruz, which was a different era when blogging was an open space not yet professionalized, allowing him a backdoor entry without following traditional journalism pathways.

“I came up through blogging, which was a very different way to come up at a time when that was a very open space, which it isn't now. And so I started a blog when I was a freshman at UC Santa Cruz... I think that allowed me to go through a back door when I started blogging. Nobody thought of that as a career nor did I. Uh you know it sounded like something that would grow on your foot.”

Ocasio-Cortez's victory in the NYC mayoralty race inspired 4,000 young Democrats under age 40 to file paperwork to run for office, demonstrating her movement-building power.

“It's my understanding is 4,000 young Democrats or people under the age of 40 filled out paperwork to run for office after he won, which is, you know, which is a good thing.”

Trump was the first person on public record in a 2006 New York Magazine story saying explicitly that 'Jeffrey Epstein likes young women,' demonstrating Trump had specific knowledge about Epstein's predatory behavior.

“Trump is the first person to my knowledge on record in this New York magazine story from what was it 06 saying publicly Jeffrey Epstein likes young women right he says um a lot of people say Epstein likes beautiful women almost as much as I do and he likes them young Trump knew whatever else you want to say about it Trump knew”

Israel is currently committing war crimes through mass starvation of Palestinian civilians in Gaza, which violates international law regardless of Hamas actions, and the idea that Hamas was systematically stealing aid has been investigated and proven false at any systemic level.

“I don't think what Israel has is a brand problem. I think what they have is a reality problem. I mean, they are currently committing war crimes. There is just no other way to describe. They have choked off food to Palestinians in Gaza, a people under occupation from them. No matter what the uh insurgent or terrorist group that you're dealing with uh wants or doesn't want or will agree to or will not agree to under the rules of war, you cannot do that. You cannot hold the entire civilian um uh population responsible. The idea that Hamas was stealing the aid has now been looked into and has proven false at any systemic level.”

Joe Lieberman personally killed a compromise to extend Medicare eligibility to 55 during ACA negotiations when the public option was being eliminated, which Klein has 'never forgiven him for.'

“In the Affordable Care Act, there was almost when the public option is getting killed, a compromise to do Medicare eligibility at 55 and Joe Lieberman personally killed it, which I've never forgiven him for.”

President Trump's popularity has dropped faster than any president at this stage of his presidency, yet polls showing he would still win a re-election today reflect not the success of his approach but the Democratic Party being leaderless and ruerless.

“I don't think when you have watched a popularity drop as fast as President Trump's has, you can say it's working. Um, what's not working is the Democratic party being leaderless and ruerless.”

American Jews overwhelmingly believe in liberalism, human rights, and multi-ethnic democracy not accidentally but because the safety of diaspora Jews depends on these principles—if ethnic domination of minorities is accepted, Jews as an ethnic minority are vulnerable everywhere.

“American Jews overwhelmingly are liberal. They believe in human rights. They believe in multi-thnic democracy. And they that that's not accidental. Um that is the set of ideas and ideals on which American Jews to some degree now European Jews on which like the the safety of the diaspora is built. Right? If the view is you can just dominate your ethnic minorities, then the Jews of the diaspora are [ __ ] right? Because we are an ethnic minority wherever we are.”

Israel's worldwide reputation is 'terrible' by any standard global polling metric, representing a massive loss of soft power compared to its historical 'David' narrative, which the host suggests may be compensated by 'strong' authoritarian nations being attracted to Israel's military dominance.

“I mean the France command said it was going to recognize a Palestinian state. That has not happened before. When you say what Israel means around the world, Israel's reputation around the world, you look at how Israel is seen around the world and it is terrible, right? I mean, whatever debates we're having in America, that is not the dominant debate in the rest of the world. The rest of the world is moving very very very far away from Israel for the most part. Um, you know, if you go look at say global polling on Israel.”

Israel is currently committing war crimes by choking off food to Palestinians in Gaza, a people under occupation from Israel, which violates the rules of war and cannot be justified by the actions of Hamas or any insurgent group.

“I don't think what Israel has is a brand problem. I think what they have is a reality problem. I mean, they are currently committing war crimes. There is just no other way to describe. They have choked off food to Palestinians in Gaza, a people under occupation from them. No matter what the uh insurgent or terrorist group that you're dealing with uh wants or doesn't want or will agree to or will not agree to under the rules of war, you cannot do that.”

Congressional leadership, particularly Senate Schumer, has not served as the public face of the parties for a long time, and predicting the profile of the next Democratic leader is difficult because parties tend to try to refight the last election rather than anticipate what the next moment requires.

“Congressional leadership has not served as a public face of the parties for a long time. To what the profile is, the truth is I don't know. Um, we tend to get the profile wrong at this stage in an electoral cycle because we tend to be trying to refight the last election.”

A version of masculinity has been conflated with coarseness and cruelty, particularly on the right, while the left contributed to this dynamic by leaving so little room for a decent, self-confident, grounded, mature masculinity that it created space for sadistic and insecure versions to rise.

“I think you also have to acknowledge that with everything that's going on, there's some moderates and democrats that are complicit, comfortable with this type of... the first thing you said that there is a version of masculinity that has been conflated with cruelty... there was so little room for a decent masculinity on the left, right? So much of masculinity was termed toxic that it created a lot of space for a fairly sadistic image of masculinity to rise.”

The Democratic Party faces its most open leadership field probably since 1992, which is the most significant leadership vacuum in Klein's lifetime.

“This is the most um open field for leadership in the Democratic party probably in my lifetime at least since '92.”

Masculinity on the left has been so delegitimized as 'toxic' that it has created space for a sadistic, performative version of masculinity to rise on the right, and figures like JD Vance and Ted Cruz have adopted Trumpian aesthetics not authentically but as an act, without Trump's grounding in his own identity, leading them to lean further into cruelty than Trump himself.

“I don't the left is complicit and has its own problems. Um I don't know it's complicit in this, but what it what it did do which I think helped create this in certain ways is there was so little room for a decent masculinity on the left, right? So much of masculinity was termed toxic that it created a lot of space for a fairly sadistic image of masculinity to rise. Right? in in a weird way uh in a weird way justifying the prophecy of toxic masculinity but the Andrew Tates and so on of the world...in the MAGA world is look Trump is Trump. Say what you will about him. The guy is very grounded in who he himself is. He's been this guy for a long time. All these people who have put on the Trump suit, starting with JD Vance, but you can look at Ted Cruz, you can look at a lot of them, who did not talk like this, did not act like this, did not think this was a way even to be in public a decade ago and have, you know, put on the cloak of it in order to be competitive, in order to be part of it. and you know now treat that as a kind of display of alpha male characteristics when it's a deeply deeply beta uh process of just kind of following the leader you know but but because of that because they it's not leavened by Trump's own sense of who he is they actually I think lean further into just cruelty oftent times than he does”

Mondani's campaign was motivated more by sympathy and desire to help people than by resentment and hatred of opponents, which is rare in modern politics and represents a 'pluralism' approach that invites people into the tent rather than pushing them out.

“One other thing I will just say about Mondani that that I've always found to be a big part of his appeal and what makes him a real political talent is he feels very motivated by his sympathies and not his resentments. That's not in my view how Donald Trump feels. But it's also not how a lot of people on the left feel. Uh often times people in politics they feel more motivated by who they hate than who they're in this for. and Mam Dani who took a lot of flack, right? You know, who got a lot of unfair attacks. Nevertheless, there was a a fundamental friendliness to his campaign, a sense that even if you disagreed with him, he didn't hate you. He wasn't looking to push you out of his circle. He wanted you in there. He wanted you in that tent.”

The book 'Abundance' became controversial not because of anti-corporate messaging but because it rests on a liberal theory of power (diffuse, multiple loci, no single enemy) that conflicts with a populist theory (concentrated corporate/wealthy elite power), and this liberal-populist divide is a fundamental structural disagreement within the Democratic Party.

“What I came to realize over time and over talking to them was that abundance is sort of more underlying theory of politics which I think is more liberal theory of politics which is that power is illused in a lot of places. There's no one kind of power that if you just broke it you would get the society you wanted right for abundance the uh kind of list of enemies is not just like corporations and rich people. Sometimes those are your problem and sometimes you have lots of other problems that you know those don't fix. So I think that became uh it became in my view the fight over abundance became a version of a fight that is inside the Democratic party between you know what we may call liberalism and populism which are are more structurally different ways of viewing politics.”

Politicians communicate in two modes: some communicate about policy while others communicate through policy; Ocasio-Cortez communicates through policy, where every one of his policies like freeze the rent, free buses, and free daycare are memetic and express values about society.

“there are two kinds of politicians. The kind that communicate about policy and the kind that communicate through policy. And Madani is the kind that communicates through policy. Right? every one of his policies, freeze the rent, free buses, free daycare, you know, government owned grocery stores, they say something about him, right? They're about his values, about how he views society, right? They're they're they're mimemetic.”

The strategic and long-term risks to Israel of being seen as a brutal ethnostate are not primarily about brand damage but about the unsustainability of ethnic domination without liberal democracy, which will lose support from allies like Democrats and Western institutions.

“Israel is moving to where its allies are, people like Donald Trump, right? JD Vance, Victor Orban, um, sort of right-wing ethnist strong men. What does that mean for Israel next time Democrats are in power and the Democrat who is in power is not 80ome years old and remembers Israel at its founding? What does that mean for Israel in 10 years if it is just accepted that it's an apartheid state”

The fight over Abundance became a proxy fight between liberalism and populism—two structurally different ways of viewing politics that assume different distributions of power and require different solutions.

“it became in my view the fight over abundance became a version of a fight that is inside the Democratic party between you know what we may call liberalism and populism which are are more structurally different ways of viewing politics. Of course those can be synthesized and I think skilled politicians will do that. But I do think it is a very real divide in people's implicit way of thinking about what what the problem is and how to solve it.”

GLP-1 medications will become a central political question because Medicaid and Medicare do not cover them as anti-obesity drugs, but covering them at current prices would bankrupt the system.

“for an extended period of time the question of GLP1s is going to become a very very very important political question because right now Medicaid and Medicare do not cover them as anti-obesity drugs. Um if they did at current prices it would probably bankrupt the system.”

The person who will fit the next moment is not the person who will fit the particular set of problems Democrats faced in the last election, so Democrats should be looking for somebody who seems organic to whatever is coming, not someone designed to solve the 2020 or 2024 problems.

“The person who will fit the next moment is not the person who will fit the particular set of problems Democrats faced in the last election. So, I think you have to be looking for somebody who seems organic to whatever is coming.”

Mondani's appeal is characterized by him being motivated by his sympathies rather than his resentments, creating a sense of fundamental friendliness and openness rather than hatred or desire to exclude opponents, which is politically valuable.

“One other thing I will just say about Mondani that that I've always found to be a big part of his appeal and what makes him a a real political talent is he feels very motivated by his sympathies and not his resentments. That's not in my view how Donald Trump feels. But it's also not how a lot of people on the left feel... there was a a fundamental friendliness to his campaign, a sense that even if you disagreed with him, he didn't hate you. He wasn't looking to push you out of his circle.”

Klein approaches media strategy by being all or nothing on specific projects rather than diversified: he invests heavily in producing an excellent podcast and excellent columns, but avoids heavy social media presence, treating media strategy as platform-specific rather than omnipresent.

“I tend to be fairly all or nothing. So, I want to have an absolutely amazing podcast, right? I want my show to be amazing. I put a lot of time into that, right? I want to be a really good columnist. I put a lot of work into those two things. Yeah, you do the work. And then I don't do social media. So I'm not really on Instagram. I'm not on X. I'm not on Blue Sky.”

The next leader of the Democratic Party will almost certainly be an 'apex communicator' who can speak extemporaneously across new media platforms (Flagrant, Lex Fridman, etc.), because the party has lost the battle for attention and candidates who operate under 'old communication rules' rewarding caution will fail in this new environment.

“The version of that I would do is the next leader of the Democratic party will be somebody who is an absolute apex communicator. I think the thing that happened with Biden in a sort of different way with Harris is the party in in and in a different way with Hillary Clinton too. the party went to these figures who were coalitionally unifying for it but who were never strong communicators um or at least Biden by the time he was running for for president was not a strong communicator in 2020 and definitely in 2024 and if the party has come I think to any view about itself it it's losing the battle for attention so if you cannot be a politician who conceptually you know whether or not I actually get invited can go on flagrant can go on Ovon can go on pivot can go on these places where you have to speak extemporaneously.”

The United States has entered a deeply indecent age in which both the reality and aesthetic of cruelty has become prized and projected from the very top, as evidenced by the White House Twitter account putting out Studio Ghibli memes of immigrants crying while being deported, representing a kind of delight in sadism that must be addressed before debating a new golden age.

“we have entered a deeply indecent age in which the both reality and aesthetic of cruelty has become prized and projected from the very top. And you look at the White House uh Twitter account putting out, you know, Studio Giblly memes of immigrants crying while they're being deported. There is a a kind of delight in sadism”

The Democratic Party must find leaders who can win the communication wars of the current moment through new mediums—people capable of being omnipresent on platforms like Flagrant, Lex Fridman, and Hannity, speaking extemporaneously in ways Biden and Harris were unwilling or unable to do.

“if you cannot be a politician who conceptually you know whether or not I actually get invited can go on flagrant can go on Ovon can go on pivot can go on these places where you have to speak extemporaneously... you're going to need are people capable of being omnipresent uh in a way that Joe Biden wasn't in a way that Kla Harris wasn't willing to do.”

Many politicians on the right, including JD Vance and Ted Cruz, did not talk like Trump, act like him, or think public coarseness was appropriate a decade ago, but have put on the Trump suit to be competitive, and because this is an adopted persona rather than grounded in their own authentic identity like Trump's is, they often lean further into cruelty than Trump himself does.

“The guy is very grounded in who he himself is. He's been this guy for a long time. All these people who have put on the Trump suit, starting with JD Vance, but you can look at Ted Cruz, you can look at a lot of them, who did not talk like this, did not act like this, did not think this was a way even to be in public a decade ago and have, you know, put on the cloak of it in order to be competitive... now treat that as a kind of display of alpha male characteristics when it's a deeply deeply beta uh process of just kind of following the leader... because they it's not leavened by Trump's own sense of who he is they actually I think lean further into just cruelty oftent times than he does”

Buttigieg's ability to discuss family, fidelity, and traditional values in a novel way—imbued with 'wonder and holiness'—gives him distinctive power in addressing cultural concerns about gay marriage and traditional institutions.

“he is able to do something that some politicians particularly when they they're they're sort of firsts in a way can sometimes do which is that he's able to speak of family and speak of an almost traditional approach to values to masculinity to fatherhood to parenthood to fidelity in a way that is novel in a way that reimbuses it with a kind of of of wonder and almost holiness. He is much better at talking about family than virtually any other politician on the field right now.”

The idea that Hamas was systematically stealing food aid to Gaza has been investigated and proven false at any systemic level, undermining the justification for choking off food as a counter-Hamas measure.

“The idea that Hamas was stealing the aid has now been looked into and has proven false at any systemic level.”

Trump is on record from a 2006 New York Magazine story as saying publicly that Jeffrey Epstein likes young women almost as much as he does, establishing that Trump knew about Epstein's attraction to young women.

“Trump is the first person to my knowledge on record in this New York magazine story from what was it 06 saying publicly Jeffrey Epstein likes young women right he says um a lot of people say Epstein likes beautiful women almost as much as I do and he likes them young Trump knew whatever else you want to say about it Trump knew”

Joe Lieberman personally killed a compromise during the ACA negotiation to expand Medicare eligibility to age 55 when it was on the table, which Klein has never forgiven him for.

“In the Affordable Care Act, there was almost when the public option is getting killed, a compromise to do Medicare eligibility at 55 and Joe Lieberman personally killed it, which I've never forgiven him for.”

Key early influences on Klein's blogging and journalism included other bloggers like Matt Yglesias, Andrew Sullivan, Kevin Drum, and Tyler Cowen, who modeled how to do independent intellectual work and formed a community of excellent people doing innovative work.

“there was one an amazing community around that of like really really excellent people who are are still like amazing figures today, right? You know, Matt Glacius was an early inspiration for me as a blogger because he was another college kid. Uh, you know, Andrew Sullivan was like one of the big bloggers of that era. Um, unfortunately Kevin Drum passed away uh, I think it was last year now, but but he was a a real figure in that. And so I think I was able to build my own sense of how to do my work and then got brought in repeatedly to to institutions... Tyler Cowan, an early blogger and a big influence on me.”

Even if Ghislaine Maxwell is released and provides testimony potentially exonerating Trump, the move risks appearing like a payoff, which will undermine credibility and likely prompt Democratic pressure when they control the House.

“maybe they try to trot out Glaine and maybe she does give testimony that seems exonerating. And in a world where it seems like she got something for that or people suspect she did, I'm not sure how persuasive that will be. I think there's still going to be a lot of calls to release these. Then at some point, Democrats, if they take the House in 2026 and then, you know, have it in in 2027, I think you should expect that to be passing a bunch. And if Republicans have the Senate, now you have like the Senate and the House fighting over this legislation.”

Trump is mentioned in the Epstein files, possibly multiple times, according to Wall Street Journal reporting, though the exact nature of those mentions is unclear—it could be just notes of them being at parties together.

“my view is not that Epstein is going to bring down Donald Trump and you know the Wall Street Journal reports that he is somewhere in those files maybe multiple times. You know where he is in them. I don't know. It could just be notes of them being at parties together.”

The left failed to develop a politics of pluralism and openness, instead becoming more interested in figuring out who isn't on their side and making that clear, whereas a successful politics requires inviting people in even if they disagree.

“I think that's easy to underestimate. I think that a real failure of the left and I don't just mean like the democratic socialist left. I mean like the the broad, you know, left of the center was developing a politics that seemed like it was more interested at times and a communication style and figuring out who wasn't on our side and making that clear than inviting people, even people who didn't agree with us in at least halfway. And Manny though, he's, you know, to a lot of people's left, he doesn't feel that way. He's looking for where you agree with him, not where, you know, he can kick you out.”

Politicians like Mondani, Ruben Gallego, and John Ossoff succeed because they know who they are and are willing to stand up for their beliefs authentically, rather than operating under 'old communication rules' that reward caution and poll-testing, creating an artificial filter that people sense.

“what you need is not like the one recipe you need candidates who are compelling on their own and one reason they are compelling on their own is that they know who they are and they're willing to stand up for it and sometimes that is to the left of where you know much of the electorate is comfortable with them being sometimes it's like a little bit to the right but but there is something about being willing to unleash the energy of some conflict around yourself right not being so careful and cautious and pole tested and mealymouthed that everybody feels when they hear you talk like the first thing happening in your mind is a filter that is catching anything you might say that anyone might not like first. People really sense when they're not quite talking to you.”

Klein is highly satisfied with his life trajectory and would advise his 25-year-old self that most good advice cannot be acted on without execution capability, so rather than abstract advice, he recommends buying Bitcoin and Tesla as concrete decisions that would have changed his financial trajectory.

“So, I'd be in DC. It's really hard because I like I'm I'm happy with how my life has turned out. There's isn't a lot here that I want to change. There's not a lot I think I could have told my 20 because advice is so advice is [ __ ] It's all execution, right? We all know to a large extent what we should... I mean, I would have invested in Tesla.”

Past predictions about what the next political leader would look like have consistently been wrong because parties try to refight the last election—after 2004, Democrats wanted someone tough and Christian for the Heartland, after 2012 Republicans wanted someone moderate on immigration like Marco Rubio, but the actual winners (Obama, Trump) didn't fit those profiles at all.

“we tend to get the profile wrong at this stage in an electoral cycle because we tend to be trying to refight the last election. So, I always talk about this, but in um after the '04 election, which was, I think, the last loss that was truly shattering for for for Democrats, um there was a period of time when what they wanted to do was find somebody they felt was tough enough and Christian enough to win back the Heartland, you know. So you had these sort of booms around people like, you know, maybe John Edwards who's a southerner or maybe it'd be the governor of Montana and he wore a bolo tie and seemed like he was very tough talking. Maybe they needed a general of some sort. Eventually it's Barack Obama. Um and then in 2012 after Mitt Romney loses, there's, you know, the famed Republican autopsy and they, you know, they need to moderate themselves on immigration and maybe it's somebody like Marco Rubio and of course it ends up being Donald Trump”

Pete Buttigieg has unique political power because he is able to speak about family, fatherhood, and traditional values with a kind of wonder and authenticity that other politicians cannot access, which allows him to transcend stereotypes about gay politicians being incompatible with family-oriented constituencies.

“Buddha Judge is somebody who I think because of how like ferocious his commitment to the life he has built a little bit beyond his own expectations is he is very very very skilled at talking about that in a way that is fairly beautiful and affecting. So I don't know if America's ready for a gay president. Is it ready for Pete Buddha Judge? I think that's going to be a different question.”

Klein prioritizes having a few excellent journalistic products (podcast, columns, books) where he invests fully rather than spreading himself thin across multiple media platforms, and he deliberately avoids social media (Instagram, X, TikTok) except where it distributes existing work.

“one thing that I think is a little different about how I approach this than other people is that I tend to be fairly all or nothing. So, I want to have an absolutely amazing podcast, right? I want my show to be amazing. I put a lot of time into that, right? I want to be a really good columnist. I put a lot of work into those two things. Yeah, you do the work. And then I don't do social media. So I'm not really on Instagram. I'm not on X. I'm not on Blue Sky. Um the the podcast is on YouTube, which I think is important, but I think of that as one project. Uh I I'm not myself on TikTok. We put my stuff on Tik Tok and actually does really well there. But but that's part of the the the kind of podcast in my view.”

Reporting and interviewing other voices is central to Klein's work quality because it keeps the work fresh and prevents it from becoming just his opinions repeated, as an early editor taught him by rejecting his first features for lacking other voices.

“the other thing that I think has always been very important in my own work is that I'm actually a reporter. I'm not just I don't think of myself primarily as a a takes writer. And I think something that that keeps my work pretty fresh is that it's not just my voice over and over and over again. And for that I give credit to a bunch of my early editors. Uh, you know, Mike Tamasi, who I remember at the American Prospect, I I came and brought him one of my early features and he looked at me and he said, "This isn't even a piece of journalism." I was like, "What do you mean?" That was such a mean thing to say to me. He's like, "There's no other voices in it. It's just you." And that made a big impression on me.”

The question of whether America is 'decent' is foundational and must be answered before debating whether a 'golden age' is possible, using Maslow's hierarchy framework where decency is a prerequisite need.

“I thought it was too easy to argue that we're not entering a new golden age. that where we were was much further down Masow's hierarchy of political or or societal needs, which is that we have entered a deeply indecent age in which the both reality and aesthetic of cruelty has become prized and projected from the very top.”

Successful media presence requires first being interesting and having something worth saying, not focusing on algorithmic success or whether people like you, and the primary question should be what service you're providing to audiences because there is so much political opinion and writing now.

“I think people think so much about what they're telling other people and whether other people are listening and are they like you know how do they get in the algorithm. I think the first question is how to actually be interesting and have something that is worth saying. Um what kind of work are you doing that you're bringing to the audience? Why what service are you hiring you to do? Because nowadays there's so much political opinion out there, so much writing, so many voices. you really got to be able to offer something that other people aren't offering.”

Rather than focusing on constructing theories in the Abundance debate, Democrats should develop specific policy proposals like building 8 million manufactured homes in 10 years at 30-50% less cost, showing Americans concrete ways to make housing affordable for their children.

“the thing I took away from listening to your interviews in the book was, you know, 8 million houses in 10 years. Let's build 8 million manufactured homes which cost 30 to 50% less than on-site homes and create little cool communities for young people which will create cool uh and basically just say to Americans your kids going to be able to afford a house if they're making a decent living like right there just one program specific number specific cost let's get on it and we got seems like diverted into this existential argument over what abundance means”

Ocasio-Cortez's team and close advisors (particularly whether Brad Lander becomes first deputy mayor) will determine governance effectiveness more than policy positions.

“I think it'll matter a lot who we see him surrounding himself with. Who does he listen to? Who would his police chief be? What would his relationship with the police be like? Who will be, you know, helping him run all of this, right? Will Brad Lander be his first deputy mayor? That would be, I think, you know, one world. And I think that would be an encouraging sign.”

Klein's core approach to journalism is being primarily a reporter rather than a takes writer, using other voices extensively in both podcast and columns, which he credits to early editors who pushed him to interview and report rather than just opine.

“the other thing that I think has always been very important in my own work is that I'm actually a reporter. I'm not just I don't think of myself primarily as a a takes writer... My podcast is, you know, primarily interviews with other people. My columns, you'll they're not literally all interview based, but they are heavily... I think it is people think so much about what they're telling other people... I think the first question is... have something that is worth saying... for me, a lot of the time that comes from other people, right? It comes from being able to kind of, you know, interview and show them at their best.”

The left and the broad left-of-center has developed a politics that is more interested in identifying who isn't on the side than in inviting people in, even those who partially disagree, which contrasts with Mondani's pluralistic approach.

“a real failure of the left and I don't just mean like the democratic socialist left. I mean like the the broad, you know, left of the center was developing a politics that seemed like it was more interested at times and a communication style and figuring out who wasn't on our side and making that clear than inviting people, even people who didn't agree with us in at least halfway.”

Lowering Medicare eligibility age by two years annually for 10 years to reach approximately age 40-45 would effectively move toward socialized medicine, and Klein has long supported this approach as well as Medicare for Kids.

“Lower Medicaid eligibility by two years every year for 10 years brings it down to I don't know 40 or 45 which effectively is socialized medicine... I've always been pro lowering the Medicare age by a lot and and also doing something like Medicare for kids.”

The key service a media figure or journalist must offer is being interesting and having something worth saying that others aren't offering, which requires doing real work (reporting) rather than just consuming existing discourse.

“I think people think so much about what they're telling other people and whether other people are listening and are they like you know how do they get in the algorithm. I think the first question is how to actually be interesting and have something that is worth saying. Um what kind of work are you doing that you're bringing to the audience? Why what service are you hiring you to do? Because nowadays there's so much political opinion out there, so much writing, so many voices. you really got to be able to offer something that other people aren't offering.”

Clean energy abundance—having more energy at lower cost on path toward being 'too cheap to meter'—represents a major possible abundance project.

“I do think that there could be and hopefully will be more conversation about what does abundance actually look like? As you were saying maybe it's 8 million homes in 10 years. I think we could do a lot more on defining and really pushing for clean energy abundance, right? Having a lot more energy, having energy that is on the path to truly being too cheap to meter.”

Klein's family and personal relationships have been stressed by the 'Abundance' book's viral success and unexpected demands on his time, leading him to implement a hard 4-month work travel stop to reset priorities around family, friendship, and health.

“I mean the first six months of this year with abundance kind of blowing up and you know asking more of me than I had quite anticipated that was stress on my home life that was stress on my wife that was stress on my kids and so at a certain point um some what is it it's July now uh so I think really right about the beginning of July I just called a full 4 month stopped any work travel and like for three or four months um I'm just a hard. No. And I I'm still working, right? I'm not disengaged, but I I just find sometimes I have to do that.”

There are seasons to different life priorities and different work projects, and recognizing when one season is ending and another is starting is crucial to managing the momentum of sustained effort.

“there's seasons for things and but you got to know when one season is ending and another is starting.”

Democrats should advise against letting Maxwell be interviewed without risk of backlash, since public knowledge of pardon coordination would undermine any exonerating testimony's credibility.

“I think the fact that so many people believe that is going to make that move a little bit hard to run. Now look like my view is not that Epstein is going to bring down Donald Trump... maybe they try to trot out Glaine and maybe she does give testimony that seems exonerating. And in a world where it seems like she got something for that or people suspect she did, I'm not sure how persuasive that will be.”

Ocasio-Cortez's victory is likely to inspire Democratic candidates and illuminate a path forward, particularly because he won by demonstrating focus on affordability and weaponizing new media while being authentic to himself, similar to Trump's 2016 campaign but from the left.

“4,000 young Democrats or people under the age of 40 filled out paperwork to run for office after he won, which is, you know, which is a good thing. And what also struck me, and I'm curious to get your thoughts, was how similar it was to the Trump campaign, a focus on affordability and weaponizing these new mediums.”

We are in a 'deeply indecent age' where the reality and aesthetic of cruelty has become prized and projected from the highest levels of government, exemplified by the White House Twitter account posting Studio Ghibli memes of immigrants crying while being deported, which represents a fundamental problem before debating whether a golden age is possible.

“I thought it was too easy to argue that we're not entering a new golden age. that where we were was much further down Masow's hierarchy of political or or societal needs, which is that we have entered a deeply indecent age in which the both reality and aesthetic of cruelty has become prized and projected from the very top. And you look at the White House uh Twitter account putting out, you know, Studio Giblly memes of immigrants crying while they're being deported. There is a a kind of delight in sadism that is so that that far before I think we need to debate are we you know when's the next golden age going to be we're going to have to pull ourselves out of glorifying indecency.”

Democrats should focus their Epstein messaging not on expecting it to bring down Trump but on weaving it into a broader narrative of corruption that includes crypto schemes, tax cuts for the wealthy while working people suffer, and positioning it as evidence that Trump promised to help ordinary people but instead enriched himself and allies.

“If I were advising them, I mean, you keep up the pressure. Ro Khan has been very sharp on this and he's been very smart on this and you focus on issues that are going to crack the other side's coalition and you weave this into a larger argument about corruption. This is one of many examples that Donald Trump uh and the people around him are astonishingly corrupt and you know John OA has been doing this on the campaign trail in a way I think is is is effective. This is a place where, you know, these powerful people banded together to pull one over on you, right? You know, whip you up about the Epstein files. And as soon as they got what they wanted from you, which was your votes, your support, your faith, they turn around and spent it on tax cuts for themselves. And you don't get the Epstein files, you get Medicaid cuts, you get food stamp cuts.”

The 'Abundance' book's focus was on critique of government failure rather than constructive vision for what abundance looks like, and while the critique generated energy by naming real failures (unaffordable housing, poor infrastructure), the visioning work remains underdeveloped.

“the focus was really on the critique um and the critique unleashed a lot of energy because it unleashed a lot of conflict. Right? We're saying government has worked poorly. We have failed in a lot of the places where we liberals, Democrats, people on the left have governed. We have not made life affordable for people. we have not um delivered uh you know big mass infrastructure projects. People have lost faith in the government for a lot of reasons but this is one of them and they're not wrong to do so...I do think that there could be and hopefully will be more conversation about what does abundance actually look like?”

Lowering Medicare eligibility by 2 years annually for 10 years (bringing it to 45-50 range) combined with Medicare for kids (up to 18) would effectively create socialized medicine since 70-90% of healthcare costs are for people over 40.

“Lower Medicaid eligibility by two years every year for 10 years brings it down to I don't know 40 or 45 which effectively is socialized medicine because I think 70 to 90% of all healthcare costs are people over the age of 40. But basically a slow but steady march towards uh socialized medicine. I've always been pro lowering the Medicare age by a lot and and also doing something like Medicare for kids.”

Trump is like a 'living Twitter algorithm' whose focus drifts from thing to thing not strategically but because he is easily distracted, though Scott suggests this may no longer be true because Trump's recent focus has been on Epstein specifically as a 'weapon of mass distraction.'

“You've likened Trump uh you've likened Trump to a living Twitter algorithm, which I love, saying that his focus generally drifts from being uh from thing to thing. Uh not because he's trying to distract us uh but because he himself is easily distractable. Uh I would my sense is right now that may in fact not be true that he's he's the majority of his focus right now is on weapons of mass distraction from abstain. I'm curious what has surprised you about the most recent iteration of uh the Epstein scandal”

The Epstein files release issue is unlikely to 'dissolve' like the Mueller Report hopes faded, because Democrats may control the House in 2026-2027 and can subpoena testimony and pass legislation forcing release, creating structural pressure that persists across administrations.

“Then at some point, Democrats, if they take the House in 2026 and then, you know, have it in in 2027, I think you should expect that to be passing a bunch. And if Republicans have the Senate, now you have like the Senate and the House fighting over this legislation. Maybe you have oversight committees that are subpoening people again under a Democratic House to get information and to have testimony and people are actually paying attention to that testimony. I it it's one of the first places where I think Democrats have seen real weakness with Trump. And so I don't expect that it is simply going to dissolve.”

The question of Mondani as NYC mayor is not whether he will win the primary/general but whether he can transition from 'movement leader' to effective executive who wields power, changes course when policies fail, and browbeats allies to make hard decisions.

“the transition from being a movement leader, which is what M Donnie is in a campaign context, to being an executive is a very big transition, as you know, as you know better than me. and the question of can he sort of wield executive power and you know tack when policies aren't working out or come up with alternatives when he doesn't have the money you know or kind of browbe people or make allies you wouldn't expect them to make and listen to people you wouldn't expect him to listen to you know all that remains to be seen”

The tax code is too broken and Democrats in 2028 should pursue comprehensive tax reform starting from scratch rather than incremental changes, moving toward a flatter but highly progressive system with fewer carveouts, possibly centered on a value-added tax structure.

“I know it's not uh Senator Schumer, but I thought that was an interesting question. What does this person potentially look, smell, and feel like? What are your thoughts? >> Congressional leadership has not served as a public face of the parties for a long time. To what the profile is, the truth is I don't know. Um, we tend to get the profile wrong at this stage in an electoral cycle because we tend to be trying to refight the last election. So, I always talk about this, but in um after the '04 election, which was, I think, the last loss that was truly shattering for for for Democrats, um there was a period of time when what they wanted to do was find somebody they felt was tough enough and Christian enough to win back the Heartland, you know. So you had these sort of booms around people like, you know, maybe John Edwards who's a southerner or maybe it'd be the governor of Montana and he wore a bolo tie and seemed like he was very tough talking. Maybe they needed a general of some sort. Eventually it's Barack Obama. Um and then in 2012 after Mitt Romney loses, there's, you know, the famed Republican autopsy and they, you know, they need to moderate themselves on immigration and maybe it's somebody like Marco Rubio and of course it ends up being Donald Trump, which is not on anybody's mind. The person who will fit the next moment is not the person who will fit the particular set of problems Democrats faced in the last election. So, I think you have to be looking for somebody who seems organic to whatever is coming. I don't think we've seen that person yet. I don't I'm not saying we don't that when we do see it we won't know they you know that they won't have been known by now but I don't think anybody has emerged as so right for where we are going with such a command of what seems to be where the country wants to be in a couple of years that I would put them you know or or their profile strongly at the front.”

The test of whether Mondani can govern effectively as mayor hinges on whether he's willing to disappoint his political allies and wield power to unleash needed reforms, particularly around zoning and construction regulation changes that conflict with interests that support him.

“I'm not sure he's willing to disappoint the people he would need to disappoint or wield enough power to really unleash a building boom... Will Mi be willing to disappoint his friends and pick the fights to change those? I don't know.”

Mondani is a politician who communicates through policy—each of his policies (freeze the rent, free buses, free daycare, government owned grocery stores) is a statement about his values and vision for society, making him mimemetic as a political figure.

“there are two kinds of politicians. The kind that communicate about policy and the kind that communicate through policy. And Madani is the kind that communicates through policy. Right? every one of his policies, freeze the rent, free buses, free daycare, you know, government owned grocery stores, they say something about him, right? They're about his values, about how he views society, right? They're they're they're mimemetic.”

Successful Democratic candidates tend to have authenticity in common—they know who they are and are willing to stand up for it, rather than being poll-tested, filtered, and careful about offense, which makes them compelling to voters.

“what you need is not like the one recipe you need candidates who are compelling on their own and one reason they are compelling on their own is that they know who they are and they're willing to stand up for it... there is something about being willing to unleash the energy of some conflict around yourself right not being so careful and cautious and pole tested and mealymouthed that everybody feels when they hear you talk like the first thing happening in your mind is a filter”

Abundance is fundamentally a book presenting a critique of government failure and the need to rebuild state capacity, rather than a book primarily about solutions, which was where the focus should have been but became a secondary conversation.

“I do think that there could be and hopefully will be more conversation about what does abundance actually look like?... the focus was really on the critique um and the critique unleashed a lot of energy because it unleashed a lot of conflict. Right? We're saying government has worked poorly. We have failed in a lot of the places where we liberals, Democrats, people on the left have governed.”

Democrats should develop concrete policy visions for abundance in multiple domains: 8 million homes in 10 years using manufactured homes, abundant clean energy at declining costs, expanded healthcare access and supply, and major infrastructure projects.

“there could be and hopefully will be more conversation about what does abundance actually look like?... maybe it's 8 million homes in 10 years... I think we could do a lot more on defining and really pushing for clean energy abundance, right? Having a lot more energy, having energy that is on the path to truly being too cheap to meter. That would be an incredible genuine um step forward... there's so much around innovation and healthcare and healthcare supply and what people have access to.”

Klein often struggles with the conflict between doing great work and maintaining presence as a partner and father, feeling that the podcast often gets the best of him while his family gets him exhausted at the end of the day.

“I mean, I one of my worst feelings is feeling like the podcast often gets the best of me and sometimes my family gets the worst. Uh, and they get me at the end of the day when I'm tired, when I'm, you know, worn down, when the caffeine is worn off.”

If Mondani wins the mayoralty, Donald Trump is likely to see him as a soft target and wage war on him, including attempting to redirect federal funding away from New York City, creating governance crises for Mondani.

“I also think that if he wins, Donald Trump is going to see him as a kind of soft target and go to war with Mum Donnie. And that will include taking a lot of money or trying to take a lot of money, the federal government um flow that flows from the federal government into New York City away from him. Uh so that could be a sort of crisis that you know there's real questions about how he'll be able to respond to it.”

Klein came up through blogging in 2003 as a college student, which was a then-open space (unlike now) that let him build skills and learn in public alongside an excellent early internet community (Matt Yglesias, Andrew Sullivan, Kevin Drum, Tyler Cowen).

“I came up through blogging, which was a very different way to come up at a time when that was a very open space, which it isn't now. And so I started a blog when I was a freshman at UC Santa Cruz. And um at that...I think of myself primarily as a banana slug. Um so that I think allowed me to go through a back door when I started blogging. Nobody thought of that as a career nor did I. Uh you know it sounded like something that would grow on your foot. Um, and there was one an amazing community around that of like really really excellent people who are are still like amazing figures today, right? You know, Matt Glacius was an early inspiration for me as a blogger because he was another college kid. Uh, you know, Andrew Sullivan was like one of the big bloggers of that era. Um, unfortunately Kevin Drum passed away uh, I think it was last year now, but but he was a a real figure in that. And so I think I was able to build my own sense of how to do my work and then got brought in repeatedly to to institutions in this kind of protected space where I was doing something they wanted, right?”

Trump's popularity has dropped faster than any president at this stage of the presidency, but this doesn't prove cruelty as a governing aesthetic is 'working' because Democrats' even lower popularity is driven by their disorganization, not by Trump's falling numbers translating to Democratic strength.

“I don't think when you have watched a popularity drop as fast as President Trump's has, you can say it's working. Um, what's not working is the Democratic party being leaderless and ruerless. Uh, I'm not shocked that at the moment if you ask people in a poll who they'd vote for, like they don't really know what to say. Like which Democrat? What do they know about them? But the Democratic party is in a pretty shattered place.”

Mike Johnson recessing the House rather than allowing a vote on releasing the Epstein files was a significant moment that made skeptics take the scandal more seriously, suggesting something substantial is driving Trump's panic around the files.

“Mike Johnson recessing the house rather than allowing that vote. Yeah. Epste is now closing Epstein has closed the government. I mean that Yeah. It was a a moment that I think even if you've been a bit skeptical that you know that beneath the smoke, this fire certainly made a lot of people look at it differently.”

Democrats should respond to the Epstein scandal strategically by keeping up pressure, focusing on corruption as a larger theme about Trump and his circle, and weaving specific issues into a broader narrative about promised change versus actual enrichment.

“If I were advising them, I mean, you keep up the pressure. Ro Khan has been very sharp on this and he's been very smart on this and you focus on issues that are going to crack the other side's coalition and you weave this into a larger argument about corruption. This is one of many examples that Donald Trump uh and the people around him are astonishingly corrupt”