Lessons from a Life of Leadership | Marshall Goldsmith | Knowledge Project 142
What this covers
Marshall Goldsmith reflects on a nearly 40-year career as one of the world’s leading executive coaches, and distills down some of the most essential ideas about how to spot an exceptional leader, and become one yourself in your life and career. Goldsmith discusses how to gain confidence, motivating others, where leaders go wrong, why it’s easier to change behavior than perception, how to specifically change other people’s perceptions, the three words that kill any conversation, decision making, the relationship between intensity and consistency, and so much more.
With nearly four decades of hands-on experience, Goldsmith is the leading expert on leadership and coaching for behavioral change and has been recognized as one of the Top Ten Business Thinkers in the World and the top-rated executive coach at Thinkers50. He is also the author of four books on the subject of leadership, including What Got You Here Won’t Get You There and his most recent book, The Earned Life.
--
00:00 - Intro 00:32 - What is leadership? 01:07 - Can anyone be a leader? 01:43 - Self-sabotaging beliefs about leadership 03:48 - How to change someone's behavior 09:55 - How to go from "achiever" to "leader" 15:13 - Should leaders always add value? 17:47 - How to motivate others 21:03 - How Marshall chooses clients 24:05 - What really matters in life 32:21 - On the importance of good company 35:49 - How to get out of a results oriented culture 41:10 - How Marshall coaches people to turn the page 42:42 - How to coach leaders to think about diversity, inclusion, and blindspots 46:00 - Why leadership is scarce in major institutions 50:23 - Where communication goes wrong and how to fix it 59:57 - On "No," "but," and "however" 1:04:19 - How to disagree without being disagreeable 1:10:09 - On making better decisions 1:13:01 - On changing your environment 1:28:27 - On having rituals for taking a breath 1:29:18 - How Marshall defines success
--
OUR FREE NEWSLETTER: https://fs.blog/newsletter/
📈 OUR MOST POPULAR INTERVIEWS 🎬 The Full Story of Naval Ravikant: https://youtu.be/mGY2To_HW98 🎬 Bill Ackman - Getting Back Up: https://youtu.be/mIS3LYxgVWc 🎬 Secrets to Healthy Relationships with Esther Perel: https://youtu.be/atXKntdX2UY
🎙 Listen to the show iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-knowledge-project-with-shane-parrish/id990149481 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1VyK52NSZHaDKeMJzT4TSM?si=abde3cc6a48d43ef
GET IN TOUCH 🌍 Our website - www.fs.blog
JOIN OUR COMMUNITY https://fs.blog/membership/
ABOUT THE KNOWLEDGE PROJECT Like the mentor you’ve always dreamed of having, The Knowledge Project shares timely yet timeless lessons for work and life. Past guests include Naval Ravikant, Daniel Kahneman, Jim Collins, Angela Duckworth, Seth Godin, Melanie Mitchell, & Esther Perel.
Source description (no synthesized summary yet).
Marshall Goldsmith argues that effective leadership requires depersonalizing achievement, focusing on process over outcomes, and helping others succeed rather than proving one's own intelligence—a shift that demands continuous behavioral change supported by accountability systems and presence.
- Successful leaders stop needing to win every argument and add value constantly, instead asking themselves whether their input will genuinely improve commitment and outcomes
- Real leadership development requires systematic follow-up and feedback from others, not coaching expertise—the coach is a facilitator, and change happens through the client's own effort and peer accountability
- Alignment between aspirations, achievements, and daily enjoyment of process (not fixation on outcomes) determines life satisfaction and leadership effectiveness
This asset isn't compiled yet
You're seeing its claims, ranked. Compile it to build the argument threads, weight them, and check each claim against your library — the full view.
Understanding someone's perspective doesn't mean agreeing with them, and you don't have to live in their perspective; you can understand, care about, and disagree with someone simultaneously.
“we can understand without agreeing with somebody else too and i think there's a nuance there we can see the world through somebody else's eyes we can smell what they smell and feel and think what they think but we don't actually have to agree with them that's right that's right that's right and you can be in touch with someone but you don't have to agree with them”
Environmental triggers (stimuli in your surroundings) control you if you're not conscious; the more aware you are that you can be manipulated by the environment, the less likely you are to be controlled by it; conversely, denying that you can be manipulated makes you more vulnerable to manipulation.
“the more we're open to the fact that we can be manipulated by the environment the less likely we are to be controlled by the environment the more we deny the fact that we can be controlled by the environment the easier it is to be controlled by the environment”
The key to making behavioral change last is systematic follow-up where the leader returns to each person at regular intervals (every 2 months) to report progress and request continued feedback, creating accountability and reinforcing the behavior change.
“the key to making everything work is you have to follow up and stick with it what's that sound like you know mr colleague two months ago i said i wanted to be a more positive and open-minded listener it's been two months based on the last two months give me ideas for the next two months”
The Western disease is believing 'when' statements ('when I get the money, status, BMW, condo, everything will be okay'), but in reality, achieving goals provides only brief satisfaction before the goalpost moves.
“the great western disease is it's all going to be defined when followed by when i get the money status bmw condominium everything's going to be okay after that there's no win that's all nonsense it's all going to be a great win when is an old person waiting to die that's when you know there's no win there”
Empathy of feeling—feeling someone else's pain—can prevent professional functioning; a hospital director who feels the pain of dying patients every day cannot function effectively unless they can compartmentalize.
“i'm the coach of the head of the st children's hospital you can see kids die of cancer every day he gets to see their parents he can't carry that home he can't live with that pain if he does he can't do his job so it could be good it could be bad”
When people are asked 'what are you proud of?' rather than given feedback, they often reveal achievements and contributions the leader didn't know about, and this becomes a natural recognition opportunity.
“a second technique is start asking people a question tell me what are you proud of so when you ask people what are they proud of they often tell you great things you didn't even know and it's another great way you can recognize people”
Never place your value as a human being on the results of what you're trying to achieve, because (1) you don't control outcomes—millions of variables impact results—and (2) even if you achieve, satisfaction is brief and you'll immediately need to achieve more, creating endless dissatisfaction.
“never make your value as a human being conditioned on the results of what you're trying to achieve never do that it's a fool's game it is a fool's game for two reasons one you don't control the outcomes there are million variables impacting anything we're trying to do in life today you don't control that and number two what happens if you do achieve stuff how much satisfaction does that give you in life anyway a week a month a year not much as soon as you achieve something if that's all that matters guess what you're gonna have to do achieve more and more and more and more and you never get there”
The story of the golfer in the beer can illustrates that successful performance requires: (1) forgetting about past mistakes and distractions, (2) focusing on the process of the next immediate shot, (3) forgetting about the final outcome, and (4) forgiving others for being who they are.
“what happens he walks up to the ball a beer can the idiots in front of him left a beer can on the fairway he is so angry what does a golfer need to do forget about the drive forget about the beer can forget about the idiots come up with a strategy breathe focus on the process hit the shot in front of you hit the shot in front of you that's it let all that other stuff go it's just a distraction don't think about winning the tournament that's a distraction don't think about the results hit the shot and the other thing is forgive the other people for being who they are and forgive yourself for wishing they were somebody else let it go don't make yourself miserable because people in front of you are idiots”
Leadership is defined as working with and through others to achieve objectives, with the key distinction being that leadership involves others rather than accomplishing things by oneself.
“leadership is working with and through others to achieve objectives and the key word and the definition is others as opposed to doing it by yourself”
Leaders must learn to transition between different roles and interactions without carrying emotional baggage from previous ones; being present means leaving the funeral at the funeral and not bringing grief to the award ceremony—this requires discipline.
“and also you can't live there see the people i coach they may play like nine roles or ten roles in a day i mean they wake up they have to do a performance appraisal they have to make a board presentation they have to go to a funeral they have to have an award ceremony you know all day they're in these different roles and they just can't carry it with them they can't they have to let go of that previous role they got to be i got to be where i am now i i'm not i'm in an award ceremony okay somebody died that's not now it's not fair to that person who's getting the award that i'm still at the funeral i'm not at the funeral anymore i'm here i'm here where do i need to be here when now”
Don't dream too big if you're not going to pursue it when you're 30; the dream may need to be small (like visiting New Zealand, speaking Spanish, playing guitar), but pursue it now rather than waiting for perfect timing.
“if you have a dream go for it because you don't go for it when you're 30 you may not when you're 40 or 80 doesn't have to be a big one maybe a small one go to new zealand speak spanish play the guitar other people think your dream is goofy who cares not their dream it's not their life it's your life”
Alan Mulally's philosophy as CEO of Ford was that his job isn't to design, build, or sell cars—it's to have great people; every day he drove to work reminding himself that leadership isn't about him, it's about them.
“is the ceo ford my job isn't that different i don't design the cars i don't build the cars i don't sell cars i gotta have great people and every day i drive to work i tell myself leadership's not about me it's about them”
Commercials represent Western culture's archetypal art form: a person is sad, spends money, and becomes happy; this message is hammered into people's brains millions of times, creating the illusion that purchasing will create happiness.
“what is the great western art form we've been hammered millions of times you get hammered with the same message the great western art form sounds like this there is a person the person is sad oh very sad they spend money they buy a product and they become happy this is called a commercial have you ever seen one of those before how many times have you seen that message there was a person who was sad they spent money and became happy millions of times has hammered into your brain”
The best way to improve communication with someone is not to ask a coach for suggestions, but to ask the person themselves what they're doing well and what they could do better.
“the best way to improve our communication with people is not to ask me for suggestions but ask them so let's say you want to do a better job of communicating with mary you know the best person in the world to help you that might be it might actually be merry ask them you know i can give you generic answers but that may or may not fit your issues ask the real people that you work with”
The phrase 'did I do my best to' in the daily questions focuses on effort rather than outcomes; it forces self-honesty because you can't blame external circumstances—you have to look in the mirror and answer whether you actually tried.
“every question starts with did i do my best to there's a reason for that it doesn't even say you succeeded you just said did you even try you see if i said did you do and your answer is no you blame the environment it's their fault but when i said did you do your best to guess what uh oh you gotta look in the mirror me me me not so pretty”
As leaders advance in organizational hierarchy, the power dynamic shifts so that leader suggestions become orders regardless of the leader's intent, requiring new discipline to avoid using positional power to force compliance with preferences.
“my suggestions become orders now he said if they're smart they're orders if they're stupid they're orders if i want them to be orders they are orders and if i do not want them to be orders they are orders anyway”
Great coaches like John Wooden (UCLA basketball) and Coach K (Duke) never focus on outcomes but only on whether the player did their best, and they move past plays immediately ('next play, next play') regardless of whether the previous play was great or terrible.
“i went to ucla and you know i had a pretty great basketball coach called john wooden when i was here and john wood never focused on results at all you know what he said all i focus on is the process and do your best if you do your best you know what be proud if you lose be proud you win be proud if you don't do your best you have nothing to be proud of”
In leadership, what matters is not what you say but what others hear; if they don't hear it, it doesn't matter that you said it.
“and you're making an excellent point in leadership it doesn't matter what we say it only matters what they hear if they don't hear it it doesn't matter if we said it or not”
Michael Phelps, who won 25 Olympic gold medals (more than anyone in history), experienced depression and suicidal ideation; when you've achieved everything measurable, what's left to drive you forward, creating psychological crisis.
“what happens to the super bowl champions disaster michael phelps won 25 gold medals more than anyone in history what do you think about doing everyone is less metal killing himself killing himself if that's it you're not going to win you're not going to win”
The phrase 'they lived happily ever after' is the end of fairy tales, not real life; in real life, we're constantly reinventing ourselves and there's no 'happily ever after' state—instead, happiness is a practice of managing moment-to-moment choices.
“one one type of book always ends with and they lived happily ever after that type of book is called a fairy tale that's a fair that's not the real world that's not that's a fairy tale in life we're constantly reinventing ourselves”
The decision-maker has the power to make the decision, and this should be accepted; if you need to influence someone who has the power, you are in a sales role, not an advisory role, and must sell what you can rather than trying to prove you're right.
“every decision in life is made by the person has the power to make the decision make peace with that not the smartest person the best person a fair person a logical person a wonderful person a rational person or even a sane person every decision is made by the person has the power to make the decision make peace with that if i need to influence you and you have the power to make the decision and i need to influence you to make a positive difference there is one word to describe you that word is called customer there's one word to describe me that word is called sales person”
At age 95 looking back at life, the three most important lessons elderly people report are: be happy now (not waiting for future achievements), maintain family and friend relationships (not co-workers), and pursue dreams because you may not later.
“some friends of mine interviewed old folks who were dying and got to ask him this question what advice would you have on the personal side three themes theme number one three words be happy now not next week not next month not next year not i'll be happy when i achieve this stuff or when i get this money be happy now”
Employees now have more power than in the past to leave organizations where they are not treated well, especially post-COVID, which forces organizations to demand better leadership because retention has become critical.
“today people have a choice and you know what they'll say goodbye especially after covet goodbye they're not going to put up with that it doesn't mean leaders are worse than they used to be it just means the expectations are higher than they used to be and employees have a lot more power than they used to have”
Having a support group of peers facing similar challenges is more important today than in the past because people are isolated from their birth communities, and this isolation creates loneliness at all levels of success.
“there's an old saying it's lonely at the top it used to be lonely at the top today it is lonely er at the top people are lonely out there and just having a group of people to talk to where nobody's going to put you on social media make a fool of you where you can just be a human one person said i get to be human one hour a week is a big deal so i think having a support group is more important today than ever”
Leaders can definitely increase their effectiveness through deliberate development, supported by research from thousands of people showing that intentional change is possible.
“i have research from thousands of people that leaders can definitely increase their effectiveness”
Feedback from multiple colleagues (on average 18 people) is more credible and harder to dismiss than single-source feedback, and creates the foundation for authentic change commitment.
“i give everyone confidential feedback so every leader i work with gets feedback from their colleagues the average person i coach gets feedback from 18 people so you know this is and these reports are very um they're hard to hear sometimes because they're not used to getting honest feedback”
Empathetic action without wisdom can create dependency and undermine people's responsibility for themselves, as when a 'fixer' parent solves all problems for their children.
“one of the people in our group she said i'm a fixer i fix everybody else's problems i create dependency they become like children and they don't take responsibility because i'm always taking care of them”
Recognition should be immediate and specific when someone does something noteworthy, not delayed to formal meetings, and the most effective recognition is often a brief personal note or mention rather than elaborate programs.
“he made a list of everyone that was important in his life friends family direct reports colleagues twice a week once on wednesday once on friday look at the page did anyone on this page do anything i should recognize if they did email voicemail say thank you little note nothing too fancy if they did if no one did anything he didn't say anything he didn't want to be a phony one year six to a 94”
As one ages, expectations naturally decrease but impact can increase, which is liberating because you can stop worrying about what you can't change and focus on meaningful contribution.
“finally as i've grown older i guess my expectations in a way have gone down and down but impact's going up and up why quit worrying about what i'm not going to change let me give you my goal lauren a little time together here pretty simple let's imagine a few people have a little better life listening to our conversation that's good enough for me i'm declaring victory here”
The path to happiness independent of achievement is to love the process of what you're doing, do your best, connect it to a higher purpose, and accept whatever results you achieve.
“the way you do it is you love the process of what you're doing you do your best it's connected to a higher purpose and you achieve what you achieve”
Vicarious living—experiencing life through others (social media, video games, watching others' lives) rather than living one's own life—has become endemic in modern culture and is a form of time waste that prevents meaningful engagement.
“one of the things i talk about is vicarious living one of the huge problems in our society today is vicarious living living our lives through others not living our own lives um the average american kid that's flunking out of school spends 55 hours a week on non-academic media video games movie tv non-academic media they're living someone else's life”
The words 'no,' 'but,' and 'however' at the beginning of sentences kill conversations because 'no' and 'but' negate everything that was just said.
“just never start a sentence with three words no but or however if you talk to me and i say no first word no was it shot you're wrong but what does butt mean disregard everything you said just erases whatever you said a terrible habit”
The most common regret among elderly people Goldsmith interviewed was not 'risks I took and failed' but 'risks I failed to take'—suggesting that inaction carries greater regret than failure.
“old people we seldom regret the risk we take and fail we usually regret the risk we fail to take”
Most high achievers report that 'did I do my best to be happy' never occurred to them as something to actively work toward, despite being one of the most important life questions.
“three medical doctors in my book triggers an interview all individually by themselves they all have iqs of a zillion i said how'd you do an average day and did i do my best to be happy they'll have the same answer never dwelled on me to try to be happy they're medical doctors”
Professional athletes use rituals (like tennis players between points, basketball players at free throw line) as versions of the breathing/pause technique to reset focus and move from emotional reaction to intentional action.
“tennis players have a ritual between points basketball players have a ritual at the free throw line what they're really doing is that's their version of this breath and that ritual counters our human nature or instinctive sort of tiger woods same ritual before he puts same thing a little what does that rich will do calm down calm down i'm putting remember what am i doing you know forget about the score forget about the past forget about the previous shot forget about the club championship no hit the shot”
Expectations for leader behavior have risen much faster than actual leader behavior has improved, so while leaders are objectively better than in the past, they fail to meet elevated modern standards, creating a perception crisis despite objective improvement.
“as leaders behavior has actually improved the expectations of leaders has actually gone up far faster than their behavior change so today companies can't tolerate bad leaders because employees won't put up with them in the old days nobody liked being managed by a bully nobody liked a bad leader nobody likes being talked down to treated like an idiot but they had to put up with it name a choice today people have a choice”
Retiring CEOs do not define success by the size of their office or money made, but exclusively by the people they helped, suggesting that life meaning comes through impact on others, not accumulation.
“if you have retired and i've interviewed very many and asked him a question please tell me what are you proud of none ever told me how big their office was how much money they made all they ever talked about the people they helped”
Self-limiting beliefs about fixed identity—such as 'I can't listen' or 'that's just the way I am'—create two damaging outcomes: they inhibit the odds of improvement, and even if behavior does change, the person doesn't feel authentic because they still identify with the negative trait.
“as long as we tell ourselves that's the way i am two things happen both bad one we inhibit the odds on ever getting better two even if we do change our behavior we don't seem authentic to ourselves we feel like a phony because if the real me can't listen and you say i'm a good listener you know what i'm thinking well that's not the real me i'm just pretending to be a good listener because the real me is no good at that”
The primary challenge for successful leaders transitioning to formal leadership is learning to stop needing to be right and smart all the time, and instead focusing on making a positive difference—this requires unlearning decades of educational conditioning that equates worth with being correct.
“when you're in school you take test after test after test after test you have to prove you're smart over and over thousands of times to prove you're smart it's very difficult to stop we're we're programmed to prove we're smart and it's hard to stop”
Happiness and achievement are independent variables—one can achieve greatly and be miserable, achieve little and be happy, or any combination—and this realization is crucial because it means happiness is not contingent on external success.
“he said i finally realized that that he i always thought happiness was a dependent variable based upon achievement that i will be happy after i achieve and he said i finally realized happiness and achievement are independent variables you can achieve a lot and be happy you give a lot to be miserable you achieve nothing and be happy you achieve nothing and be miserable through independent variables”
The distinction between preferences and requirements is critical: what is a personal preference about someone (their hair color, appearance, style) must be separated from what is required for job performance, and conflating them is a source of discrimination.
“he always differentiate between what he called a preference and a requirement of the job and he used example my apologies he uses the example of um he uses the example of phil jackson coaching the chicago bulls and dennis rodman and dennis rodman you know had yellow hair or purple hair that phil jackson didn't care he led the league in rebounds and maybe phil jackson did or did not love his multi-colored hair the point roosevelt made is so what he didn't care that's his choice whether i like his hair or not is irrelevant this is not a fashion contest it's a basketball game”
In intimate relationships, when a partner shares that they had a hard day and the other person responds by one-upping with 'but I had it worse,' both parties are engaging in competitive winning rather than empathy, which damages the relationship.
“you have a hard day at work a hard day you go home your husband wife friend or partner is there the other person says i had such a hard day today i had such a tough day and we reply you had a hard day you had a hard day do you have any idea what i had to put up with today do you think you had a hard day we're so competitive we have to prove we're more miserable than the people we live with”
When a partner resists forgiveness by bringing up mistakes from 10 years ago, the appropriate response is to acknowledge you were a different person then who made mistakes, but you are not that person now and have worked to improve.
“a guy's riding in a car with his wife and they had a great time with the kids over the weekend they're so happy and she starts in on well you know 10 years ago you were never around and you didn't do this and that and the other and he said something he said you know that was a different person he said i'm i'm not the person i was 10 years ago hopefully i'm a better person i've tried and the person 10 years ago made some mistakes i'm not that person and you know what you said you're right you aren't that person that's not fair”
Albert Burla, CEO of Pfizer, came up with a vaccine that saved approximately a billion lives, stock reached all-time high, and was CEO of the year—but when asked about his satisfaction, he revealed his huge problem: next year he has to do better than this year.
“i mentioned albert berla who endorsed the book from pfizer i called albert how'd you do last year pretty good you know came up with his vaccine saved a billion or so lives that's pretty good and stock's an all-time high and ceo of the year and oh book and oh bubba on and on a pretty good year so what's your problem in life he said i have a huge problem next year next year if his value as a human being is he has to do better than last year pack it in he will never do better than last year”
Different people have different referent groups—different heroes and role models they look up to—and understanding this difference reduces the likelihood of hating or discriminating against people whose referent groups differ from one's own.
“the first thing is realize different people have something called different referent groups they have different heroes they look up to different people and it doesn't mean they're good or bad but if you understand that you're much less likely to hate people or discriminate against people”
The past leadership model knew more than their subordinates and could tell them what to do; the future leadership model acknowledges that specialists know more than leaders about their domains and requires inclusive, questioning leadership.
“he said you know in the past the leader of the past knew how to tell leader future's going to ask like you said they're going to be inclusive they're going to ask why in the past it was a different world in the past the leader knew more about what they were doing than the followers in the future the followers no more than a leader”
The technique of pausing to breathe and ask 'is it worth it' before speaking helps leaders filter unnecessary comments and makes better decisions about which suggestions to make; JP Garnier reported that as CEO he was only able to maintain this discipline 50% of the time.
“he said before i speak breathe breathe and ask one question is it worth it is it worth it he said as the ceo of this company 50 of the time have had the discipline to stop and to breathe and say is it worth it what did i decide am i right maybe is it worth it no oh”
The response to feedback requires a specific sequence: gratitude, acknowledgment of positive feedback, apology for past failures without excuse, and a clear request for ideas for future improvement—followed by listening without judgment or critique.
“they go back and talk to everybody and say for example you know thank you so much for participating in this process the first thing i want to say is you know how grateful i am i don't know who said what many people said many things to try to help me i have nothing to lose and much to gain second much of my feedback is positive ethical dedicated hard-working i care about the company and our customers and creative and getting results and these are important things to me i hope my score high and did i do not know who said what i know a lot of people took the time to help me i just want to see how grateful i am then they don't say but they say and there's something i'd like to improve”
Living in the past through memories or accomplishments (like the Super Bowl winner still telling the story decades later) is another form of vicarious living, because the person is no longer who they were and cannot experience the past's reality.
“and by the way when you live in the past you're living someone else's life too the guy sitting at the bar talking about super bowl three he wasn't in super bowl three a kid was in super bowl three a young version of him 50 years ago was in super bowl three not him well that's just another form of vicarious living he's living with what he used to be”
Six essential daily evaluation questions are: (1) Did I do my best to set clear goals? (2) Did I do my best to make progress toward achieving goals? (3) Did I do my best to find meaning? (4) Did I do my best to be happy? (5) Did I do my best to build positive relationships? (6) Did I do my best to be fully engaged and present?
“question number one every day evaluate yourself on one to ten scale and every question starts with did i do my best to there's a reason for that it doesn't even say you succeeded you just said did you even try you see if i said did you do and your answer is no you blame the environment it's their fault but when i said did you do your best to guess what uh oh you gotta look in the mirror me me me not so pretty the first one is did i do my best every day to set clear goals”
The 'every breath' paradigm from Buddhist philosophy teaches that with each breath, a new version of 'me' emerges; the previous versions of self made mistakes but also gave gifts, so the appropriate response is gratitude for gifts and release of guilt for mistakes.
“so i'm a buddhist i'm not a religious buddhist i'm a philosophical buddhist i probably read 400 books about buddhism so i know more about buddhism than i know about get what i got a phd in buddhist belief is every time i take a breath it's a new me so you breathe new me knew me knew me everything that happened before this second in time was done by an infinite set of people they were called the previous me's so the first thing is you breathe and you think about all the previous shoes think of all the gifts they've given you that's listening to me right now think about how hard they tried how many people they helped if anybody did that many nice things what you just say to those good people thank you thank you thank you”
The '24-hour rule' is a practice where no matter what happens in your day, you get 24 hours to celebrate or cry about it, and then the next day you have a new blank page and must move on; you can't hang on to yesterday's wins or losses.
“i have an idea that you know i've written about recently called the 24 hour rule which is no matter what happens in your day you get that day to celebrate or cry or the next day you have a new page and it's a blank page and you have to move on you can't hang on to yesterday's wins or yesterday's losses you just need to go forward that's it”
To practice avoiding 'no, but, however', use a financial penalty system: every time you use one, you pay $20 to charity; one client improved dramatically in a short period because the financial consequence made the habit visible and uncomfortable.
“so one of my clients is stubborn and opinionated and by the way my clients if they do this i find them 20 so he says but and the money goes to charity so he says you know and now you think twenty dollars where they care about twenty dollars they're rich people yeah you're right a lot of them are men yeah yeah i'm gonna help you somebody said rich old men would ritual men like to lose small amounts of money no rich old men don't like to lose any money i can tell you they hate losing money so it's amazing how well this works and the money goes to a charity they choose like one guy going you know 20 40 60 80 100. he said this is expensive i said you made 35 million bucks last year this 20 dollars going to a little homeless child shut up shut up just pay the money it's embarrassing”
When a boss receives a good idea from a subordinate and adds value to it rather than endorsing it fully, the quality may improve 5 percent but the employee's commitment to execution drops 50 percent because it is no longer their idea.
“i'm young smart enthusiastic and you're my boss i come to you with an idea you think it's a great idea rather than just saying great idea our tendency is to say well that's a nice idea why don't you add this to it well the quality of the idea may go up five percent my commitment to execute this idea just went down fifty percent it's no longer my idea boss now it's your idea”
Breathing acts as a 'clutch' mechanism that shifts the brain from automatic responding (animal instinct) to reasoning, and breathing before speaking is the foundational practice for changing reactive behavior patterns.
“what i like about the breathing exercise is that it acts sort of as a clutch and it takes us from responding and into reasoning and when we respond without reasoning we're truly animals if you will and all of our sort of instincts come out”
A simple recognition technique—making a list of people who matter, and twice weekly reviewing whether anyone deserves recognition and sending them a thank you note—increased one leader from 6th percentile to 94th percentile in recognition giving in one year.
“one of my clients taught me this he went from a six percentile and provided recognition to a 94 percentile in one year six to 94. so what'd you do it's not too complicated he made a list of everyone that was important in his life friends family direct reports colleagues twice a week once on wednesday once on friday look at the page did anyone on this page do anything i should recognize if they did email voicemail say thank you little note nothing too fancy”
Every interaction (each Zoom call, meeting, conversation) is potentially the most important one for the other person, even if it's routine or the least important one for the leader, so leaders must reset and be fully present before each interaction.
“she said you know this may be the least important zoom call of the week for me it may be the most important one for them and what you need to do as a leader is you need to stop and breathe before every different interaction breathe stop if you don't they all start to blur together”
Empathy is not uniformly good; there are four types of empathy (understanding, feeling, caring, action) and each can be positive or harmful depending on context and degree.
“empathy is an interesting thing up until a couple years ago i just saw empathy is a good thing sounds good fuzzy warm he has lots of empathy i thought well that sounds good and i started studying empathy i realized it's sometimes good but too much empathy can be a disaster so i talk about four types of empathy and it's good to look at all four”
A famous hedge fund manager became less effective when he started caring about whose retirement accounts and healthcare expenses he was managing, because caring made him risk-averse and unable to make necessary aggressive investment decisions.
“he said well you know i've made obviously tens of billions or hundreds of billions of dollars for people but i've also lost tens or hundreds of billions i've probably made 51 or 52 and lost 48 or 49. that's pretty good and obviously i have a few billion left over for me that's pretty good he said i never cared i would just make investments and you know analyst and if i didn't play a game and i was good at it and they said one day i started caring i started thinking you know well this is a this is somebody's retirement account and their health care and they need this money and i started caring you said it became much less effective afraid to take risks he said i don't invest other people's money anymore i just invest my own”
'Singular empathy' is being who you need to be for the person you're with right now, not carrying past interactions or future anxieties, and not trying to prove one's own virtue or heroism.
“singular empathy and what does that mean i'm going to be who i need to be for the person i'm with now i'm going to be who i need to be now i'm not carrying around the past i'm not sitting there trying to prove how heroic i am i'm going to be who i need to be now”
As you advance in hierarchy, an executive coach's job is not to tell you what to do but to help you select the right clients (subordinates/stakeholders), because with the right team, the coaching process always works; with the wrong team, it never does.
“your biggest challenge as a coach is one thing customer selection you pick the right customer your coaching process always works you pick the wrong customer your coaching process will never work”
Telly Young, Broadway star of Aladdin, maintained authenticity and joy across 1000 performances by connecting each night to an eight-year-old version of himself who was touched by theater for the first time; he was essentially performing for that child, which gave him access to genuine emotion and presence.
“he said i had to become the rope now he said i'm gay but i had to fall in love with that princess you know every night and the way i motivated myself is he said when i was a little boy i was eight years old and i went to a play and it was so touching and singing and music and lights and i just loved it and he said every night i get it there on stage you know what i think that eight-year-old kid this is for you this is for you kid and maybe i've done the play a thousand times but the kid has not seen it a thousand times wonderful story”
A surprising finding from Marshall's coaching practice: there is a negative correlation between the amount of time he spends coaching with someone and the degree to which they improve; the person who improved the most received the least coaching time from Marshall.
“the client i coach that i spent the most amount of time with did not improve at all and he did not get paid the client i coach i spent the least amount of time with improved more than anyone i've ever coached 200 people got better and i did get paid a very humbling lesson i made a chart on one dimension it was called time spent with executive coach marshall will smith the other major called improvement there was a clear negative correlation between spending time with me and getting better”
Most people in history were trapped in the action phase (day-to-day activity) with little control; some are lost in aspiration (dreaming without achievement); high achievers typically overweight ambition and become lost in achievement, and this imbalance is the central problem Goldsmith addresses in his book.
“what happens is if you look at the history of the world most people in the history of the world were kind of stuck in the action phase that day-to-day activity we didn't have a lot of control in our history we kind of much did what we were told were born where we were supposed to be played our role in life and we just lived from day to day not a bad thing just that's the way it was some people are lost in the aspiration phase they have lofty ideas and dreams they don't achieve much but they think a lot about big things the people i coach and most people on this podcast if they're not careful they overweight ambition and achievement they're lost in achievement”
The person Marshall coached the most hours (30+ years of relationship but minimal coaching) who improved the most was Alan Mulally, CEO of Ford, whose stock appreciation was 1837% (from $1.01 to $18.40), and who achieved 97% approval rating from union and non-union employees and ranked number 3 greatest leader in the world.
“allen went on to be the ceo ford the stock went from one dollar and one cent to 18 and 40 cents 1 837 appreciation and stock value he also had a 97 approval rating from every employee union company ceo of the air in the united states and ranked number three greatest leader in the entire world amazing man”
Medical doctors at a children's hospital had never received training on empathy despite being around dying children daily; working with Marshall to understand the four types of empathy and when each is useful was deeply appreciated.
“and let me give you an irony i'm working in a children's hospital in san diego with him as volunteers and he's teaching a class we're teaching the class about empathy and i said well i'm sure you must have had you know lots of training about this topic you know what the answer was zero never been trained at all on this topic and they're around dying kids so you know you really need to think what does empathy mean when is it useful when is it not useful and they were so appreciative to even have somebody try to teach them about this”
A client's improvement from 6th percentile to 94th percentile in 'being fully present in interactions' came from the simple practice of breathing and asking 'who's here now, what's important now?' before each different interaction, not from changing understanding or beliefs.
“one of my favorite lessons from you is uh you've said in the past that there's three words that kill conversations no but and however and i'd love to talk about what impact these words have and how do we learn to stop using them this is a great tool to help you be a better listener and be more open-minded just never start a sentence with three words no but or however”
Marshall's coaching works on a pay-for-results model where he doesn't get paid if his clients don't improve; improvement is measured not by Marshall's assessment or the client's self-assessment but by feedback from everyone around them.
“in my coaching for years i didn't get paid if my clients didn't get better better is not judged by me or them and shoves everyone around them”
A CEO with KKR private equity ownership initially resisted direction from his investors, claiming 'you can't tell me what to do, I'm the CEO'—but this misunderstood the power hierarchy; the investors own the company and if he won't follow direction, they'll replace him at a cost of a couple million dollars rather than argue.
“fred is the ceo he's he's 41 at the time so he's the ceo of this kkr company you know what fred says about kkr 41 year old young fred ceo he said oh they can't tell me what to do fred 41 year old fred oh no can't tell me i'm ceo they cannot tell me what to do i'm the ceo you see you know henry kravitz who's worth billions of dollars can't tell fred what to do sorry fred let's grow up son so anyway they figure out how much it costs to get rid of fred a couple million bucks they don't even care about the couple million bucks it's a pain in the butt now they got to hire somebody new start over”
A basketball star in Marshall's group didn't prioritize being present with his wife because he claimed he was tired, but Marshall pointed out that this same person played NBA championship games exhausted without complaining—the issue wasn't fatigue but prioritization.
“one of the guys that was in my little group is a great basketball star this is a great story so one of his things was he wants to be fully engaged with his wife because his wife says you're checked out too much now you're physically here but you know mentally you're not here he's going to do better so one day his wife you know he's terrible terrible terrible so i talked to him and said what was the problem so i was tired very tired i've been working out all day i was tired you see i said that's very interesting i went to the national basketball championship finals there and i watched you play that game i paid a thousand bucks for a seat and so did my son we watched you and you're running up and down that court like a banshee now i said were you tired i was exhausted i said did you go to the coach and say hey coach i'm tired take me out nope nope he said i never told the coach i was tired my entire life i said you think your wife was impressed with i'm tired”
A great life requires three foundational elements that are not the focus of Goldsmith's book: good health, middle-class income, and great relationships with loved ones; given these prerequisites, three additional elements determine life quality: aspirations (a why), ambitions (achievements), and daily activities.
“the ones i don't discuss are number one is health you need to have good health but i'm not writing a book on health two you need at least a little kind of middle class level of income and i'm not writing a book about that and you need to have great relationships with people you love and this book is only partially about that assuming you've got that you need three things one your aspirations you have to have something why am i doing this some reason for existence that's beyond just getting things done you need a why two your ambitions those are the achievements that you have and then number three is your day-to-day activities that's the life you're living every day”
Leaders who receive honest, critical feedback yet don't implement systematic improvement actually have behavior that is worse than before because employees perceive the feedback response as inauthentic and lose trust.
“what is the relationship between the quality of feedback leaders receive and the actual changes in their behavior according to the research both have gotten worse feedback on leaders is worse and worse and worse than it's ever been behavior of leaders is better and better and better”
At 73 years old, Goldsmith chooses to do podcasts and coaching instead of the alternatives available to him (like playing bad golf with old men at the country club) because the former is more meaningful, illustrating that meaning, not achievement or status, drives choice at that stage of life.
“you know what i could be doing right now i had the opportunity i could be playing crappy golf with old men at the country club while eating chicken salad sandwiches and discussing gallbladder surgery yes i could be doing this i don't want to do that i'd rather talk to you it's more meaningful to me it's a lot more meaningful than playing bad golf and talking about you know gallbladder surgery”
Marshall conducted nine programs in his house for retiring CEOs, and the first thing he tells them is they can't live in the past—they can't say 'I used to be the CEO of something'; they have to find meaning in what they're doing now.
“i've done nine programs in my house with retiring ceos and first thing i tell them is you can live in the past you can't you can't sit there and say i used to be the ceo of something you got to be where you are you got to find meaning now”
Breathing and asking 'is it worth it?' before speaking helped Fred, the resistant CEO, accept direction from his private equity owners; he made the shift from 'they can't tell me what to do' to respecting the actual power structure and serving as CEO effectively for 12 years.
“so fred says well they can't tell me what to do i said fred i'm gonna help you buddy it's their money you no i said fred i said fred not only can they tell you what to do you know what fred i'm going to tell you exactly what to do and fred if you do exactly what i tell you i may save your sorry butt if you do not do exactly what i tell you i got to go back to daddy and mommy in new york and say i can't help little freddie and then fred i said he needs a better coach fred there isn't a better coach is there they're just screwed aren't you fred so what's it gonna be friend fred you know what he did he he salutes the flag he said thank you that was 12 years he was the ceo of that company did a great job never had a problem got along with corporate very well he just had a little bit ego issue and he would tell you that conversation changed his life”
Even elite performers with simultaneous MD/PhD from Harvard struggle with the daily scorecard practice—a high-achieving person was asked to do it for 14 days and only managed 7 days; this isn't because the practice doesn't work but because it's hard (embarrassing, humbling) and requires discipline.
“i work with some of the most successful people in the world i was just coaching one of the most successful people in the world last week he was supposed to do this every day for two weeks he made it seven days out of fourteen now he has a simultaneous md and phd with honors from harvard in anthropology and normal in five years a normal human gets a phd in anthropology in harvard in eight years he owned five years got md at the same time you know what he couldn't get it up for three minutes every day to do this after he committed to do it why it's hard it's embarrassing it's humbling and we did this thing over kovid i'm going to share six basic questions that everybody had to talk about”
A simple discipline for deciding whether to speak is: (1) will my comment improve this person's commitment? (2) is it worth saying? At work, roughly half the time the answer to #2 is no; at home, almost never is something worth saying if you have to ask.
“if you have to ask at work i'll give you a technique breathe is my comment going to improve this other person's commitment if the answer is yes fine if the answer is no breathe again is it worth saying sometimes it is sometimes it's not at home breathe breathe is my comment going to improve my relationship with the person i love if the answer is no should i say it well at work about half the time if you have to ask it's not worth it at home it's almost never worth it if you have to ask”
'Winning too much' is identified as the number one problem among successful people Goldsmith has coached, defined as the compulsive need to win in trivial situations where winning is not worth winning, driven by deep habit from decades of competitive achievement.
“what's the number one problem of all the successful people you've coached over the years my answer winning too much what does that mean it's important we want to win it's meaningful we want to win if it's critical we want to win if it's trivial we want to win if it's not worth it we want to win anyway”
100% of every leader Marshall has met have been born; the question is not whether leaders are born or made, but whether existing leaders can become more effective through development.
“are leaders made or born a common question and i can answer one thing definitively are you ready 100 of every leader i've ever met and i've met many have been born they've all been born so the only question is can leaders become more effective and the answer to that is a definite yes”
Marshall is ranked number one coach in the world partly because nobody knows he's a good coach—he can't claim superiority—but because he has 'the best clients'; he attributes his success to client selection, comparing it to being a hockey coach of the all-star team.
“you know what key to being a great coach work with them it's like saying that the key to being a good coach in hockey is like coaching the all-star team oh yeah exactly i'm coaching the all-stars by the way the coach that coaches the greatest players he's probably going to win yeah it's probably going to win”