Raymond Tallis - The Search for Meaning
What this covers
Subscribe to the Closer To Truth podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen: https://shorturl.at/mtJP4
To search for meaning, God or something like God is often involved. But this need not be so. How can meaning be found, or purpose realized, without invoking supernatural forces? Scientists and philosophers who do not believe in God search for ‘meaning’ in what seems to be a meaningless cosmos. They do generate a kind of ‘meaning’. Are they fooling themselves?
Make a donation to Closer To Truth to help us continue exploring the world's deepest questions without the need for paywalls: https://shorturl.at/OnyRq
Raymond C. Tallis is a philosopher, poet, novelist, cultural critic and a retired medical physician and clinical neuroscientist.
Shop Closer To Truth merch like mugs, hoodies, and T-shirts to show your support of the show: https://bit.ly/3P2ogje
Closer To Truth, hosted by Robert Lawrence Kuhn and directed by Peter Getzels, presents the world’s greatest thinkers exploring humanity’s deepest questions. Discover fundamental issues of existence. Engage new and diverse ways of thinking. Appreciate intense debates. Share your own opinions. Seek your own answers.
Source description (no synthesized summary yet).
Meaning cannot be a fundamental or overarching property of the universe because totality by definition cannot point beyond itself, meanings are inherently local and dynamic, and the exclusion of meaning from scientific methodology is not a failure but a feature that makes science powerful and useful.
- The scientific enterprise deliberately excludes meaning to achieve rigor and practical usefulness; meaning is not science's job description
- Any overarching meaning would require pointing beyond the totality of things, which is logically impossible
- Meanings are intrinsically local and dynamic phenomena that cannot converge on a single point
This asset isn't compiled yet
You're seeing its claims, ranked. Compile it to build the argument threads, weight them, and check each claim against your library — the full view.
An alternative to the convergence model is the religious idea of an overarching meaning that holds up the universe, with individual meanings (children, science, etc.) all addressed to a single entity that serves as a point of convergence.
“the other idea of of course is of an overarching meaning that actually holds up the universe and you're just part of it and that of course is the great attraction of religion and indeed the attraction religion is that all those separate meanings whether it's the loved ones children or pursuit of all come and they're all addressed to a single entity that there is a point of convergence”
Galileo stated that the job of the scientist is not to tell you how to go to heaven but to see how the heavens go, establishing a crucial distinction between science's proper domain and the domain of meaning or values.
“Galileo famously said know the job of the scientist is not to tell you how to go to heaven but to see how the heavens go”
Kierkegaard said 'purity of heart is to will one thing,' articulating an ideal where all meanings converge on a single unifying will or purpose.
“and kard famously said purity of heart is to will one thing and that's where everything comes together”
Science is not a search for meaning but a search for practical useful truths and generalizable laws; the absence of meaning in scientific laws is not a deficiency because meaning is not part of their job description.
“science isn't a search for meaning science is a search for some practical useful truths from generalizable laws the fact they lack meaning that's fine it's not part of their job description”
In Weinberg's paper, he describes an explanatory arrow pointing downward from society to people, from people to organisms, from organisms to cells, and from cells to molecules, and claims that explanation flows in this reductive direction.
“in the same paper I think he says he talks about the explanatory arrow pointing downwards from society to people from people to organisms from organisms to cells from cells to molecules so he says that's where explanation goes”
Particular meanings in life are transient, will be forgotten, and will have no ultimate permanence, yet we are haunted by finitude and the knowledge that even our memory will disappear.
“those are small Ms those are things that are transient and will be forgotten and will have no ultimate um um uh uh permanence I think that's true and so I mean behind that is that we're haunted by finitude all the meanings we have in our lives will be erased um and even my memory will disappear”
Galileo established that the job of the scientist is not to tell you how to go to heaven but to see how the heavens go, establishing a distinction that has made science powerful, effective, and useful.
“Galileo famously said know the job of the scientist is not to tell you how to go to heaven but to see how the heavens go and so that distinction um is very important it's made science powerful and effective and useful”
Science is a search for practical, useful truths and generalizable laws, not a search for meaning, and the absence of meaning in scientific laws is not a failure but consistent with science's actual purpose.
“science isn't a search for meaning science is a search for some practical useful truths from generalizable laws the fact they lack meaning that's fine it's not part of their job description”
The speaker lacks any coherent story of how consciousness or personhood could continue without a physical body, and therefore cannot endorse the idea of personal continuation after death.
“I have no story of the continuation of the story for example me without flesh pretty miserable object me without with flesh pretty unprobable object”
The explanatory arrow in science points downward from society to people, from people to organisms, from organisms to cells, and from cells to molecules, and following this trajectory necessarily sheds meaning at each level.
“he talks about the explanatory arrow pointing downwards from society to people from people to organisms from organisms to cells from cells to molecules so he says that's where explanation goes”
For three reasons—the totality cannot point beyond itself, meanings are inherently local, and meanings are intrinsically dynamic—it is unlikely that a single overriding, overarching meaning of the totality of things exists.
“so for those two three reasons I think it's unlikely that we should find as it were single overriding overarching meaning of the totality of things”
The totality of all things cannot be about anything else by definition, because there is nothing outside the totality for it to point to, which argues for pointlessness.
“it is I mean first of all the totality of things couldn't be about anything else by definition there's nothing outside that totality so it couldn't as it were point to something else that would seem to argue for pointlessness”
Meanings are inherently local phenomena, which is part of their essential nature or 'aboutness,' and they cannot be universal or totalizing.
“the other thing is meanings seem to be inescapably local that's their part of their very aboutness”
Meaning is intrinsically dynamic, suggested by the participle 'meaning' itself which implies ongoing evolution, and therefore cannot settle into a static, overarching universal meaning.
“and the other is meaning is something that's intrinsically dynamic in the very participle meaning suggests that it's something always evolving”
The difference between a short wake and a long wake is irrelevant after death, and posthumous fame is wasted on the dead, as exemplified by Shakespeare who did not enjoy the celebrations of 2016.
“and when you're dead it doesn't matter whether it's a short wake or a long wake yeah you know I mean Shakespeare didn't enjoy 2016 although he was celebrated all over the world you know posma Fame is wasted on the dead”
Ray Steven Weinberg claims that the more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless.
“Ray Steven Weinberg uh uh a good friend um said that the more the universe seems comprehensible the more it also seems pointless”
If the trajectory of scientific explanation is reductive (moving from macro to micro), then it is unsurprising that meaning gets progressively shed at each level, resulting in an utterly meaningless final understanding.
“well if that's the trajectory of explanation no wonder you're shedding payloads of meaning at each level so you will end up with something that is utterly meaningless”
By beginning with the exclusion of meaning from scientific investigation and then finding no meaning at the end, the conclusion is circular and therefore unsurprising ('surprise surprise').
“you begun by excluding meaning you find no meaning at the end surprise surprise”
If one believes that the laws of nature constitute the totality of all that exists, then one will inevitably conclude that totality lacks meaning, but this conclusion does not indict science itself.
“if you think the laws of nature such as they are are the totality of all that there is then of course you'll find the totality of all that there is lacks meaning but science is not about finding meaning”
The distinction between science's proper scope (explaining mechanisms) and the broader question of meaning has made science powerful, effective, and useful, and this distinction has contributed to meaningful activity in human life.
“that distinction um is very important it's made science powerful and effective and useful and thank you very much indeed and indeed it's fed into things meaning C meaningful activity in my own life”
A search for fundamental meaning is possible beyond superficial or local meanings that are widely acknowledged to exist.
“is a search for meaning then possible in a way that is that is goes beyond the the uh the torgy of you know we all want meaning in our lives and we're using it in a very general sense I mean is there any possibility for for a fundamental meaning”
Eternity as infinite continuation is an unattractive prospect because one would have to endure eternal existence with the same annoyances and ordinary people forever, making even immortality undesirable.
“eternity is unattractive proposition I mean think of your Nextdoor neighbors square root of minus one would you like to be you know the kind of other characters uh in in in eternity”
Despite being a secular humanist atheist, the speaker's position leaves open a logical possibility that something continues beyond death, even while maintaining no coherent story of how such continuation would work or what it would be like.
“my own position uh does leave a crack of light open a sense of possibility that perhaps when I die that may not be the end of the story but I don't think so”
The more the universe seems comprehensible through scientific explanation, the more it seems pointless, but this is an unsurprising result of deliberately excluding meaning from the scientific enterprise.
“I think it's the totally unsurprising conclusion of excluding meaning from the scientific Enterprise”
The idea that all separate meanings (love, children, science, pleasure) could converge on a single point like the vanishing point in perspective is probably a forlorn hope.
“the Lov one's children the Delight in science pleasure on a hot day all those things as if they could Converge on a single point bit like the vanishing point in a perspectival picture and that I think is probably a forlorn hope”
The speaker rejects belief in continuation after death but remains open to the logical possibility, having no story of how such continuation could work.
“but I don't think so that's very interesting to me that you would you would you would admit as a a a a a harsh secular humanist pardon the expression uh someone who is uh who has um militantly would choose atheism over agnosticism for a series of interesting reasons uh you you would admit that there is some possibility that there is something beyond death but I have no story of the continuation of the story”
The speaker does not have a principled philosophical argument against the continuation of existence after death, but has no idea how such continuation could occur or what form it would take.
“so yes I have an idea that perhaps the story isn't ended but I certainly as a matter of principle don't have any idea of how it might be continued or what continuation would be”
Fundamental meaning might consist of a convergence point where all separate meanings (love of children, delight in science, pleasure on a hot day) come together in a single vanishing point, like perspective in a picture.
“I mean is this I suppose what one's thinking about is a point of convergence of all one's meanings you know the Lov one's children the Delight in science pleasure on a hot day all those things as if they could Converge on a single point bit like the vanishing point in a perspectival picture”
Despite being a secular humanist and militant atheist, the speaker acknowledges a crack of light—a sense of possibility that perhaps after death, the story does not end.
“but it does seem to me that my own position uh does leave a crack of light open a sense of possibility that perhaps when I die that may not be the end of the story”
The speaker rejects the theological model of unified meaning, despite acknowledging the appeal, for reasons that concern deep ontology rather than human frailty.
“you reject that well I'd love to believe it's true but for all sorts of reasons I don't think it is true and of course some of those who have pure hearts have horrible uh intentions that that to me is not terribly relevant because um that deals with human Frailty as opposed to deep ontology about what what it is I I want to try to get to”
If you add everything up, the totality cannot be exceeded by definition, which supports the conclusion that the totality lacks overarching meaning.
“well if if if you add everything up of course the totality by definition cannot be exceeded”
The speaker does not believe in overarching meaning but does have an abundance of local, particular meanings in his life, sometimes overwhelming in their richness.
“so I I I think you're gravitating to what what you rejected at the beginning don't think so because there lots and lots of meanings my life is ABS has an embarrassment of rich an embarrassment of bling sometimes you know it's absolutely overwhelming”
Local, particular meanings are transient and will be forgotten, and lack ultimate permanence.
“those are small M and I I respect and and and treasure those but those are small Ms those are things that are transient and will be forgotten and will have no ultimate um um uh uh permanence”
We are haunted by finitude: all meanings we have in our lives will be erased, our memory will disappear, and even the memory of us will disappear quickly, leaving only a short wake.
“I think that's true and so I mean behind that is that we're haunted by finitude all the meanings we have in our lives will be erased um and even my memory will disappear but memory of me will disappear pretty quickly you know we all leave a short wake”
By definition, the totality of all things cannot be about anything beyond itself because there is nothing outside that totality, which suggests the universe cannot have meaning pointing toward something external.
“the totality of things couldn't be about anything else by definition there's nothing outside that totality so it couldn't as it were point to something else that would seem to argue for pointlessness”
The conclusion that the universe is pointless is an unsurprising result of deliberately excluding meaning from the scientific enterprise from the outset.
“I think it's the totally unsurprising conclusion of excluding meaning from the scientific Enterprise”
The things being eliminated by scientific methodology are so ethereal or vacuous that they cannot be rigorously studied, and attempting to preserve them would impede scientific rigor.
“what you are eliminating are things that are so ethereal some would say vacuous that they are unable to be studied and if you let them just sort of sit there as these amorphous things it would impede your ability to have any sort of rigor in understanding what you're doing”
We all leave only a brief wake in history and after death it makes no difference whether our wake was short or long, unlike posthumous fame which would benefit the living but is wasted on the dead.
“we all leave a short wake and when you're dead it doesn't matter whether it's a short wake or a long wake yeah you know I mean Shakespeare didn't enjoy 2016 although he was celebrated all over the world you know posma Fame is wasted on the dead”
Without flesh, the self is a miserable object, and with flesh, the self is an unprobable object, which makes eternity an unattractive proposition.
“for example me without flesh pretty miserable object me without with flesh pretty unprobable object so for all sorts of reasons I mean eternity is unattractive proposition”
The speaker lives between two extremes regarding cosmic meaning (design vs. pointlessness) without committing to either, and finding a third alternative is difficult.
“I kind of live with the extremes um myself I can't tell you which one I go for but I mean to to uh to try to find something else is a little difficult for me”
The speaker maintains principled agnosticism about continuation after death, having no idea how it might work or what form it could take, while acknowledging the logical possibility exists.
“I certainly as a matter of principle don't have any idea of how it might be continued or what continuation would be”
Some people claim they don't believe in a personal God but believe the universe does have meaning and purpose—a transcendent something without committing to either theism or pointlessness.
“some of those who have pure hearts have horrible uh intentions that that to me is not terribly relevant because um that deals with human Frailty as opposed to deep ontology about what what it is I I want to try to get to that possibility of meaning now some would say that they don't believe in God in the UN but the but the universe does have meanings it's about something it it it there's some sort of a Transcendent something or other”
A mobile phone has no inherent meaning but is instrumentally useful for enabling meaningful or meaningless relationships.
“there's no meaning in a mobile phone but gosh it's Jolly useful when it comes to you know forging mean meaningful or meaningless relationship”
Meanings are inescapably local as a matter of their fundamental nature, and this localism is part of what makes something meaningful.
“meanings seem to be inescapably local that's their part of their very aboutness”
Meaning is intrinsically dynamic—the very word 'meaning' in its participial form suggests something always evolving rather than fixed or eternal.
“meaning is something that's intrinsically dynamic in the very participle meaning suggests that it's something always evolving”
If one believes that the laws of nature are the totality of all that exists, then of course that totality will appear to lack meaning, but this is not a defect of science—it is the consequence of a metaphysical premise.
“if you think the laws of nature such as they are are the totality of all that there is then of course you'll find the totality of all that there is lacks meaning”
For three logical reasons—self-reference requirement, localism, and dynamism—it is unlikely that we should find a single overriding overarching meaning of the totality of things.
“for those two three reasons I think it's unlikely that we should find as it were single overriding overarching meaning of the totality of things”
Despite rejecting cosmic meaning, the speaker's own life contains an abundance of particular meanings that are transient but nonetheless real and valuable.
“there lots and lots of meanings my life is ABS has an embarrassment of rich an embarrassment of bling sometimes you know it's absolutely overwhelming those are small M and I I respect and and and treasure those”
The speaker personally lives with extremes (theism or pointlessness) and finds it difficult to articulate a middle position that avoids both.
“now one there is a God that has all purpose and designed the universe for ex and and and and the other is that the UN the more we know about the universe the more it seems pointless so the do you think there is I kind of live with the extremes um myself I can't tell you which one I go for but I mean to to uh to try to find something else is a little difficult for me”
Religion's great attraction is that it provides a single point of convergence where all separate meanings (loved ones, children, pursuits) come together and are addressed to a single entity.
“the other idea of of course is of an overarching meaning that actually holds up the universe and you're just part of it and that of course is the great attraction of religion and indeed the attraction religion is that all those separate meanings whether it's the loved ones children or pursuit of all come and they're all addressed to a single entity”
Kierkegaard's principle that 'purity of heart is to will one thing' represents the ideal of a unified meaning, but the speaker does not believe this ideal is achievable or that pure hearts necessarily have good intentions.
“kard famously said purity of heart is to will one thing and that's where everything comes together you reject that well I'd love to believe it's true but for all sorts of reasons I don't think it is true and of course some of those who have pure hearts have horrible uh intentions”
Some people claim they don't believe in God or the supernatural but believe the universe itself has meaning and is about something transcendent, as a middle position between theism and nihilism.
“some would say that they don't believe in God in the UN but the but the universe does have meanings it's about something it it it there's some sort of a Transcendent something or other that maybe they don't obviously don't know but not willing to go to the the two um the two opposing schemes”
Despite lacking any meaning in themselves, practical tools like mobile phones enable meaningful activity and relationships in human life.
“there's no meaning in a mobile phone but gosh it's Jolly useful when it comes to you know forging mean meaningful or meaningless relationship”
The convergence-point model of fundamental meaning is probably a forlorn hope.
“and that I think is probably a forlorn hope”
The prospect of eternal life spent with one's undesirable next-door neighbors makes eternity seem like an unattractive proposition.
“I mean think of your Nextdoor neighbors square root of minus one would you like to be you know the kind of other characters uh in in in eternity”