The Essence of Leadership with Randall Stutman | The Knowledge Project #95
What this covers
The founder and co-head of the Leadership Practice at CRA and the Admired Leadership Institute, Randall Stutman is an incredible executive coach with an impressive roster of clients. You’ll walk away from this episode with some tools to put into practice to make you a better leader, partner and parent as Randall discusses the behavioral versus psychological view of leadership, what really drives results, and the uncommon routines of the world’s best leaders.
https://twitter.com/AdmiredLeaders
00:00:00 Introduction 00:00:19 Leadership is Behavioral 00:03:30 Studying Routines of Excellence 00:04:48 What is Leadership? 00:07:29 Commonality Between Leaders Actions 00:09:11 Components of Leadership 00:11:33 Where are these Components of Leadership Present 00:19:15 Timelessness of Leadership 00:20:25 Maximize the Impact of Feedback 00:36:46 Repairing an Out of Balance Relationship 00:40:50 Praise Isn’t Always Straight Forward 00:46:14 Improving Performance 00:52:37 Calibrating a Leader 00:55:13 Hardest Transferrable Behavior 00:57:28 Culture Eats Strategy for Lunch 01:00:59 Addressing Dysfunction in the Workplace 01:03:01 Inspiring Others and “Fanness” 01:20:44 Maintaining Fanness in Tough Times 01:24:14 Leading During a Crisis 01:28:08 Lessons for Your Kids 01:32:12 Admired Leadership Course
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Leadership is fundamentally behavioral, not psychological—the best leaders master specific, universal, timeless actions and routines (feedback balance, prioritization, fan-ness) that work across all contexts and relationships, not psychological insight into individual differences.
- Understanding individual differences doesn't make people better leaders; studying what admired leaders actually do reveals common behavioral routines others don't know about
- Leadership behaviors are universal and timeless—they work in marriages, parenting, teams, and crises because they're grounded in how humans respond, not personality types
- Excellence in leadership, like excellence in dancing or golf, relies on foundational routines and habits practiced consistently, not techniques deployed situationally
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Leadership is fundamentally about making situations and people better through strategic messages, decisions, actions, routines, and sometimes symbolism that move people to be different; it is not defined by position, authority, or title, so anyone can lead at any time anywhere, including young children, and the best teams are teams of leaders, not a leader with a team.
“what leaders do is they make situations and people better that at the essence of the end of the day and the essence of what they do is they strategically practically engage in some level of message decision action routine but also some level of symbolism sometimes that actually moves people to be different”
Once people discover that a leader knows more or was less forthcoming than they initially said, trust is irretrievably broken; the leader may be forgiven for the incident but never for the dishonest response.
“don't try to hide behind anything or anybody they're going to find you anyway...the truth always comes out okay and so your response needs to reek of that truth early on i don't want to find out later that you knew more than you told me...once i don't i don't trust your response i don't believe in the integrity response i can never trust you again”
People often resist organizational change not because the proposed solution is wrong but because they benefit from the current dysfunction; when you expose this—that people are benefiting from the problem—you can sometimes create openness to change, but people won't adopt solutions that require them to give up power, resources, or the benefits they're getting from the status quo.
“because somebody maybe multiple people are benefiting from that problem they like that problem they want to own that problem they want to keep that problem because they're benefiting from that problem and when i really started thinking about that that is the essence of why a lot of change doesn't occur because people like the outcomes not all of them they they admit that there's this function on one side of the equation on that problem but to give it up and to change and get away and lose that issue means that they lose something and they really like it they're committed to that thing”
Motivation and inspiration are distinct concepts: motivation is any action that compels other action; inspiration is lighting the fire—inspiring people to want to do better, achieve, and excel. Most motivational things are not inspirational (e.g., threat of cold shoulder compels compliance but doesn't inspire), but most inspirational things are also motivational.
“motivation is generally not by my definition academically thought to be anything any action that compels other action so when a leader does something that makes it so that you do something differently then then then i've motivated you to do that different thing”
In a crisis, it's not the incident itself that defines a leader's credibility—it's the response; people will eventually forgive and forget the incident but will never forgive a poor response; the response must reek of competence, integrity, and sincerity, and must include waiting for facts before responding, responding transparently, acting from values and character, and producing remedy not just apology.
“it's not the actual act that defines you it's always your response it's the response that defines your credibility in every case people will eventually forgive you and forget about or hold in less saliency the actual incident or act but they will never forgive you for the response”
The psychological view of leadership—that leaders should understand individual differences and adapt to them—is incomplete; while respecting psychology is necessary, experience shows that understanding yourself better doesn't actually make you better at leadership, and the most effective approach is behavioral: identifying and mastering specific actions and routines that great leaders share.
“people don't they understand themselves better but they don't change they don't they don't they don't actually get better at this thing called leadership”
Leaders often promote and reward results-driven performers without checking whether those performers have followership—teams willing to follow them—and many highly promoted leaders are actually despised by their teams, which is why sustainable leadership requires both results and followership skills, not results alone.
“how many of the teams really despised those leaders that had these fabulous reputations that these leaders were being promoted very rapidly inside their organizations but everybody around them would vote would have voted them off the island”
When you find people with genuine followership skills, they report that followers feel differently around them—feel more engaged, feel differently about themselves, develop loyalty, believe that loyalty is reciprocated, and feel that the leader stands for them—creating a qualitatively different context for engagement.
“what people around them will tell you is they they feel differently when they're around them they want to be engaged by them they feel differently about themselves when they're engaged by those people um they create a great a loyalty to those people don't want to let them down they believe that loyalty is reciprocated where that person stands for them”
Most leadership training emphasizes decision-making, but the tool for improving people's performance is feedback, criticism, evaluation, judgment, and counsel—all forms of carrying feedback.
“there's probably some that are more core than others i don't think there's anybody that doesn't think leadership involves making decisions and quality decisions if you're going to make people better then the tool that you have is criticism and feedback and evaluation and judgment and advice and counsel so the idea of carrying feedback in some way becomes a critical function of leadership”
Some leaders withhold praise because they don't need it personally (intrinsic motivation is strong) or because they have high standards and want to withhold recognition until people achieve excellence; this causes them to have fewer praising opportunities and reduces their skill at praise, which is a behavior that can be learned and practiced.
“praise uh is tough for some people because they they don't personally need it so talk go back to the individual difference piece i don't need it so why would i give it to you um but the most common reason that i find uh that leaders don't give praise is because they have really high standards”
Some people are not coachable on any given behavior because they like themselves and their outcomes too much; they like what they see in the mirror, don't need external input, and have been very successful with their current approach, so they resist change and only dabble at trying new behaviors rather than committing to them; ego, vanity, success, and comfort are major impediments to coachability.
“some people like themselves too much they they aren't open to making change because they like the outcomes they're getting they've been very successful they when they look in the mirror they like what they see by the way most of those people get almost their advice all their advice and counsel in that same mirror”
Values are what leaders leave their children more than anything else; leaders should explicitly talk about values, act on them consistently, and live them transparently rather than leaving them mysterious or using slogans; family values should be explicit when children are young and formative (before they have peer influence and formal education), and while children can choose their own values later, early exposure shapes their independent values significantly.
“the thing that you um leave your kids more than anything else is not just the lessons you learn but the values you hold and as long as you hold them consistently and and it's you leading by example”
The negativity effect—the psychological phenomenon that negative information carries more weight and impact than positive information—is why leaders naturally buffer feedback by starting with softening statements; but most leaders don't buffer enough, leaving relationships chronically out of balance with too much negative feedback relative to positive, which causes people to withdraw, shut down, and become defensive before feedback even arrives.
“no surprise we all have a natural and intuitive understanding that negative information carries a lot more impact and weight than positive information so even when i think you've done a lousy job i'll normally start it with some throwaway”
The difference between a 'technique' and a 'routine' in leadership: a technique is something done for effect in specific situations (when you want a particular outcome), while a routine is something done consistently because you believe in it as part of your identity—routines are mastered through constant practice and become natural habits, whereas techniques remain sporadic and signal manipulation.
“technique is it's something i do for an effect i do it for a reason of an outcome not just the outcome of i want to make you better i do it because by asking for permission as an example i get you to want to hear what i have to say”
Excellence in all physical and mental domains—from dancing to golf to exam preparation—has foundational routines; therefore it should not be surprising that leadership also comprises specific behavioral routines.
“i'm a big advocate for is the idea that of of course excellence in just about everything on the planet from physical acts and and skills like dancing to hitting a golf ball to to um preparing for an exam they all have routines to them excellence in almost everything is has a set of foundational routines is it any surprise that leadership also has a set of behaviors and routines that are associated with it”
The best leaders—those who are admired in all contexts (family, community, workplace, worship, neighbors)—operate from a consistent set of core behaviors and routines that they practice everywhere, not behaviors they turn on and off for different situations, which is why admiration is universal across all their relationships.
“they were admired by their spouses they were admired by their friends they were admired in the places of their worship they were admired by their neighbors they were admired in their communities they were admired by their team they were admired by the leaders above them they were admired everywhere they went”
Culture eats strategy for lunch (attributed to Peter Drucker); talent sets the table; without the right talent, you have nothing; if you want to influence an organization at the deepest level, you have to deal with talent first, and then culture has a large impact; organizational culture can be resistant to change because it likes the current outcomes (even dysfunctional ones) or believes new initiatives are fads that will be waited out.
“i believe it was peter drucker that said culture eats strategy for lunch i would tell you that talent um sets the table um and so without talent you've got nothing but um uh and if i if i'm trying to influence an organization at the deepest level i want to deal with talent first but but culture has a big impact”
Leadership is about other people, not about the leader—leaders should stay in the background, not foreground; this is why Randall has maintained anonymity for 30 years before launching public course.
“i'm a big believer that leadership is about other people uh that we're supposed to be in the background not in the foreground that bob dylan was right when he said when you're on top you're really on the bottom that doesn't mean you have to be a servant leader but i think you have to think in the mentality of this is not about me”
The core feedback behavior that admired leaders practice is starting with positive feedback that is as vivid, elaborate, and detailed as the negative feedback will be, and matching the number of positive remarks to negative remarks (roughly 1:1 or higher ratio), not just offering throwaway positives, so the relationship and the specific feedback moment are both in balance.
“the best leaders on the planet the most admired leaders in everywhere they all do the same thing they all start positive just like we all do intuitively when we're going to be critical but their positive is as vivid elaborate and as um detailed as the negatives are going to be and they generally match in terms of number”
Third-party praise (telling a third party about someone's excellence rather than telling the person directly) is more powerful than direct praise because: (1) it makes the person look good in front of someone else, (2) there's no 'but' attached (high-standard people often qualify praise with caveats), and (3) it signals higher sincerity—you wouldn't tell a third party if you didn't really believe it—and it eventually comes back to the person in a way that feels like genuine recognition.
“one number one i made you look good in front of somebody else that's always a good thing number two there's no buts in that in that praise in other words high standard people will always have a butt like that was a great presentation but right you could do this better there's no but if you're telling a third party”
A priority is different from an objective, goal, or KPI—it is something shifting all the time, representing your highest focus right now, and never your day job; the best leaders get people's short-term priorities right, and longer-term goals take care of themselves; most leaders are overly clear about long-term objectives and goals but under-focused on calibrating people's near-term priorities.
“a priority is something that's shifting all the time it basically says it's my focus right now it's it's maybe my highest focus it's never my day job if it's truly a priority um because that's that's an ongoing commitment”
There is a universal motivator that works across all cultures, genders, ages, and experiences: everyone wants the people they respect and admire to root for them—to be fans of them, to clap and cheer for their success, to say and show that they believe in them; this is universal and true across all people, and mastering the ability to be a genuine fan is the game-changer of motivation and inspiration.
“that everyone wants it and that everyone desires it and in the process of that if we can master that thing it doesn't mean we don't do the other things we should be doing those too but that if we get good and skillful at this one thing then it becomes the game changer of how you really how the best leaders really motivate inspire”
One key fan behavior is keeping great news alive in time—not keeping it alive forever, but extending it longer than normal by documenting it, framing it, making it a screensaver, writing a letter someone can reread, celebrating it monthly for a year, naming a conference room after someone temporarily, or naming a sandwich after them for three weeks—only a fan would do this, and it inspires people more than any other single behavior.
“a fan keeps that great news alive they actually stunted it in time they take that accolade or that that that wonderful uh outcome and and they don't keep it alive forever but they keep it alive for longer so that you as as a person that i lead has the ability to benefit and bask in that in that accolade for longer”
The Tiger Woods birdie shot at the 2005 Masters (hole 16, par 3, from rough to within 20 feet, ball rolls backward toward hole, stays on cup edge for 2.2 seconds before dropping) is cited as evidence that external enthusiasm can influence outcomes; a sportswriter present reported that the vibration from the crowd was so intense he could feel it in his thighs, and he wrote that the ball made the final revolution because of crowd enthusiasm, not physics alone.
“he had never heard or seen anything like it that the enthusiasm that and the enthusiasm for that shot was unequal and when it got closer and closer to the hole he said people were making so much noise and that they were so enthusiastic about what happened he said everything was moving the ground was shaking he could feel the vibration up to his thighs”
When someone doesn't like a person—finds them hard to work with, arrogant, petulant—but the person produces good results and can't be removed, the leader still has to be a fan and find different behaviors to celebrate and different ways to celebrate them; leaders can't selectively decide who to inspire and who not to inspire; the job of leadership is to inspire everyone you lead.
“what happens if you're somebody that reports to me and i don't like you your personality or your style you're just hard to work with or you know you're arrogant or you're petulant or whatever else and if i had my druthers you wouldn't be on my team but you i've inherited you i can't get rid of you um it wouldn't wouldn't be good for you or for me you produce great results but i i mean a fan i don't even like you like what do i do about that and and the answer is you have to find different behaviors you have to have to find different things to celebrate”
Best leaders studied in one large energy company had both high results and high followership (called 'admired leaders')—when examining their management teams, the CEO and his direct reports assumed they would all be admired leaders, but only two actually were, revealing that admired leadership is rare even among senior executives.
“the ceo once i told him of my idea he was excited because i said listen i'm looking for admired leaders leaders that have results and followership that have both qualities really rare and he said when would you like my interview and and he said my management team is available to you too and i thought why isn't that fascinating right because of course they thought they were admired they had risen to the very top”
The interviewer uses a parenting technique with teenage children: when catching them in a lie or suspected dishonesty, offering them a choice about whether to dig the hole deeper (lie more) or tell the truth now (get easier consequence).
“i love that i i do that with my my kids now which is when i when i sort of catch them lying or i think they're lying i sort of say like your choice right now is going to make this better or worse it's sort of like just indication that you can you can dig this hole a lot deeper um or you can sort of like tell me the truth now and it's going to be a lot easier”
Dale Carnegie and Ken Blanchard are among very few exemplars of behavioral leadership approaches historically; most leadership education is psychological or principles-based.
“there's not many exemplars of a behavioral view i'd have to go back to dale carnegie uh and then maybe uh can blanchard but there's not many”
A sign that a relationship is severely out of balance is when the other person asks 'Do I do anything right?' or 'Is it ever good enough for you?' which signals they've internalized a pervasive evaluative climate.
“great sign when somebody tells you like do i do anything right um you know you know is is it ever good enough for you i mean that's such a great sign that they're they believe they're in an evaluative place with you”
There's a common pattern in organizations where a new leader 'cleans up' a dysfunctional team and then gets promoted; the next leader tells the same story of cleaning up the same dysfunction, which suggests the dysfunction is cultural and embedded in the organization, not just the result of the previous leader's style or absence of leadership.
“i remember working in a large organization before and what i noticed was this common pattern of stories and the stories were i came into this team i cleaned it up and then i left right because you don't stay in these teams very long you get promoted you sort of move on to a new job and then but the next person would always come in and tell the exact same story”
Understanding leaders requires asking them about their self-perception of signature strengths and weaknesses (as humans, not just as leaders), checking that against what close others (spouses, family) perceive, and asking what first impressions they think they give others—these questions reveal self-awareness and the gap between self-perception and reality.
“i want to know from their own point of view what what they consider to be their signature strengths and weaknesses i want to know what they consider both and they'll always ask me you mean as a leader and i don't know as a human being right um because to me they're all the same thing”
Some leaders have drawn the wrong lesson from their success, believing that harsh or stern leadership caused their results, when actually those results occurred despite their harshness and they would achieve better results with style variation.
“they've been harsh stern people and people generally perform at a high level for them and they think it's because of their harshness and sternness that that's why they've gotten there that's the lesson they've learned when in fact i can prove to them empirically that it's actually in spite of their harshness and sternness that they would even get even more out of people”
When studying motivation and inspiration across cultures, research identifies several factors (mastery, purpose, autonomy, incentives, belonging, status, relationships), but most leaders have a 'go-to' approach based on what motivates them personally rather than adapting to what motivates others.
“what most leaders do in defense is in in a very calculated way every once in a while they'll sit down and try to do something that's inspirational motivational but generally they have a go-to and their go-to is whatever inspires them so if there's somebody that's inspired by praise they generally offer a lot of praise just about everybody”
When someone gets 15 years of positive performance reviews and then a new leader gives them their first honest, fair, and objective critical review, they often react as if the review is unfair or dishonest, because they've been conditioned to expect only superlatives and are unprepared to hear balanced or critical feedback.
“i sat down with a leader who had gotten 15 years of positive performance reviews got a brand new leader and that leader was fairly critical and that leader in their first review gave them a very honest what i thought was an honest and fair review but they couldn't see it as honest affair because they had been used to so much superlative for so many years from so many leaders that were not courageous enough to be honest with them”
The Admired Leadership Institute has developed a digital leadership course with 10 modules covering functions of leadership (feedback, change, time management, etc.), with 10 specific behavioral routines explained in each module; the course aims to have larger influence (thousands instead of hundreds of people) and preserve knowledge through digital format rather than just consulting; the approach is behavioral, not individual-difference or principle-based, distinguishing it from most other leadership training.
“we've decided to put together a digital leadership course that includes and describes and teaches people a lot of these behaviors and i know you you've spent some time inside of it i loved it i thought it was one of the best things i've i've done ever”
When studying the best leaders, finding their commonalities and universal patterns is not easy, but once patterns emerge, they are surprising in their ubiquity across leaders from different generations, geographies, and experiences.
“finding things that are in common that people share is not easy but now let me say it's really easy to find the self-evident stuff...but the fine commonalities the routines of excellence of leadership...that was really hard and it surprised me when we study really fabulous leaders...how quickly you can find certain things but i'm always surprised of how many leaders who don't know each other come from different places different experiences different generations and they all do some of the same things”