What this covers
Masaaki Suzuki, the conductor of Bach Collegium Japan, speaks with Tyler Cowen about the inexhaustible depths of Bach's music and its power to move listeners across cultures and faiths. The conversation moves through the history of Bach's passions—how they departed radically from earlier liturgical tradition, how Felix Mendelssohn's revival of them required wholesale reconstruction of lost continuo practice, and how modern historically-informed performance attempts to recover what intervening centuries had obscured. Suzuki reflects on his own decades of work interpreting these pieces, and on the particular challenge of performing Bach's sacred music in Japan, where fewer than one percent of the population are Christian yet thousands gather annually for performances of the St. Matthew's Passion.
The discussion ranges across several distinct territories: the technical character of registers and stops in organs from Bach's region of Saxony and Thuringia, and how restoration choices shape their sound; the symbolic dimensions of works like the Brandenburg Concertos, interpreted through the lens of Michael Marissen's scholarship on social hierarchy; and the transformation of taste across generations—how interpretations by Karel Richter or Willem Mengelberg that electrified their time now sound to Suzuki as "machine-like" and alien. The conversation also touches Japan's surprising cultural relationship with Beethoven's Ninth, the history of hidden Christianity that survived centuries of suppression by blending with Buddhist practice, and early-modern encounters between Japan and Europe through organ-playing boy missionaries. Suzuki emphasizes that Bach's music presents perpetual puzzles—the more one studies it, the more elusive full understanding becomes—yet argues this quality need not trouble those who approach the work not as autobiography or theology but as sacred music that speaks to individual listeners in their own circumstances.
Suzuki argues that Bach's music is an inexhaustible, mysterious object whose authentic performance requires historically-informed understanding (original instruments, continuo improvisation, theological text), and that this music can carry meaning across cultures and faiths even where Christianity is largely absent.
- The more one studies Bach, the more distant a full grasp of his mind becomes, because his music always contains puzzles.
- Historically authentic performance practice (continuo, original organs) was lost and had to be revived, making earlier interpretations no longer acceptable.
- In Japan, with ~1% Christians, thousands attend St. Matthew's Passion, showing the Bible's message and Bach's music transcend religious membership.
Performance interpretation of Bach must evolve with each generation's understanding and technique.
- Although Karl Richter was a remarkable musician who could conduct St. Matthew's Passion from the harpsichord without scores, his recordings are completely modern and machine-like, note-by-note, which is no longer acceptable to Suzuki's ears today even though it generated great excitement for audiences at the time.
“the machine-like notes by notes... That is really not acceptable anymore, but at that time, that made, probably, a lot of excitement for the audience”
- The sense of value about musical performance changes continually across generations; a romantic, very slow interpretation like Mengelberg's St. Matthew's Passion, though completely different from modern practice, worked and was right and stimulating in its own time.
“This sense of value about the performance is changing all the time. I think we belong to a quite different generation, but at that time, it must have been very right and very stimulating to do the Bach music.”
- Suzuki re-records works like St. Matthew's Passion not to correct earlier mistakes (he regrets nothing in the first recording) but as a milestone, because over the intervening years both technique and the understanding of Bach—shared by all the choir and orchestra members—have developed considerably; recording is never perfect, so he would always want to do it again.
“we have improved, not only technically, but also the understanding about Bach. And all the members... have all developed much. That’s why, as a milestone, I think it’s very good to do once again.”
- Suzuki deliberately tries not to listen too much to other recordings before recording because of too much influence, valuing instead the lived experience of the recording sessions themselves, during which the music is absorbed into every cell of the performers' bodies amid significant life events.
“I’m trying not to listen too much to other recordings... That was too much influence.”
Sacred music in concert transcends liturgy and reaches listeners through their own situations and thoughts.
- Suzuki approaches the St. John's Passion not as liturgy but as general sacred music performed in concert, where the performers' job is simply to do their best sound-wise and text-wise, leaving the music to work on individual listeners according to their own situation and thoughts.
“We are doing it simply as musicians, to do our best, to do, sound-wise and text-wise, everything as good as possible. I think the music can work afterwards to the individuals according to their situation or thoughts.”
- In the St. John's Passion the choir performs a multifunctional role, acting as the turba (the shouting mass of people in the narrative) while also being required to sing the chorale, integrating dramatic and devotional functions throughout.
“The structure consists of the choir as the turba, the mass of people, the shouting and so on. At the same time, the choir was also supposed to sing the chorale, so the multifunctions”
- Suzuki always uses a score and never performs by heart because, unlike pianists or singers who must memorize, there is no reason for conductors to memorize; memorization diverts energy into avoiding mistakes and continually changes one's understanding, whereas the only task should be making sound, so keeping scores (as in sacred choral music) is better.
“for conductors, no reason to memorize, actually, just like Ansermet said.”
- Visiting historic sites like St. Thomas Church in Leipzig is meaningful but does not provide a connection to heaven or the original atmosphere, because the church's interior is now structurally quite different from Bach's time; Bach can be found anywhere in the world rather than in any particular place.
“I can’t make any connection to heaven through that church. Anyway, Bach can be anywhere. I thought that Bach can be anywhere in the world.”
- Fewer Japanese music students now go to European conservatories than before, largely because Japanese musicians can get jobs at home; nevertheless living in Europe at least once remains very important for anyone wishing to be a musician of European music.
“all the Japanese musicians can get a job now in Japan, so they don’t have to really go to Europe anymore in terms of getting a job.”
- Before 1639, churches and organs existed in Japan (including at Azuchi near Kyoto), and boy missionaries were sent at least twice from Japan to the pope in Rome; during the multi-year voyage some practiced the organ on the ship, so that on arrival at Évora in Portugal one could immediately play the organ, astonishing everyone.
“when they arrived at Évora in Portugal, one of them could play the organ immediately, and everyone was astonished.”
- Glenn Gould's piano interpretations of Bach, far from being unusual, are a quite natural conclusion if one tries to make articulations and harpsichord/organ-like effects on the piano; his Goldberg Variations are a fabulous recording, though one or two of his organ recordings were strange.
“It is not so unusual if you try to make articulations, and also to make some effects like the harpsichord and organ and so on. I thought this is a quite natural conclusion that he did in that way.”
- Beethoven's Ninth holds special meaning in Japan, with more than a hundred performances in December alone, and some projects gather more than 10,000 people to sing the choral ending, making it a beloved mass musical event rather than a single ordinary concert.
“There are more than a hundred performances of Beethoven’s Ninth only in December.”
- For listeners new to Bach's cantatas, Suzuki recommends Cantata No. 8 'Liebster Gott' as comfortable, beautiful music usable even as background, and Cantata No. 102 for its interesting structure including a choral double fugue and a dramatic aria—while warning that complex works like Cantata No. 80 are too difficult for beginners.
“Cantata no. 8, “Liebster Gott.”... That is really wonderful music. You can really use it as BGM”
Japanese audiences and musicians can authentically engage Bach's sacred music through translation and without Christian membership.
- Because Japanese audiences and musicians cannot understand the German texts and lack a Christian background, providing Japanese translations is necessary; this translation work is itself a vital part of interpretation, since even the Bible is read only through translation, forcing performers to consider what the text truly means.
“this kind of translation work is part of very important interpretation work because we read the Bible, for example, only through the translations.”
- Despite Japan having only about 1% Christians (versus 40-50% in Korea), Christian culture is widely known and Suzuki's annual Holy Week St. Matthew's Passion performances draw thousands (around 30 performances and 5,000-6,000 people), showing that many can appreciate the Bible's message and Bach's music regardless of formal religious membership.
“Something like 5,000, 6,000 people are coming for that performance. That is an amazing thing in comparison with the number of Christians in Japan.”
- American classical audiences are more friendly and more easily and directly excited by performances, while Japanese audiences are knowledgeable and cooperative but less outwardly demonstrative because Japanese culture teaches not to express feelings directly from inside to outside.
“we Japanese people don’t express directly from inside to outside. We were all told in school, for example, that is a rule.”
- After Christianity was suppressed in Japan (around 1639), it survived only as 'hidden Christianity' that mixed with Buddhism, surviving repression and torture; as researcher Tatsuo Minagawa documented, some hidden Christians held funeral ceremonies combining Buddhist and Christian rites, with priests murmuring 'this is not true' while performing the Buddhist portion.
“Christianity was actually left over only as the hidden Christians... it is not possible to call it Christianity anymore, but it is a mix up with Buddhism.”
A conductor must prioritize genuine musical devotion and understanding over technical ability alone.
- When auditioning musicians for the Bach Collegium Japan, technical ability must be judged, but the most important quality is how much a musician can devote themselves to the music and how much genuine interest they have, not technique alone.
“Not only the techniques are the most important thing, but probably their interest and how much they can devote themselves to music. That is the most important thing.”
- Suzuki claims his extraordinary musical output stems not from any pursuit of being productive but purely from Bach's music being so fascinating that he cannot stop working; he only wants to improve performance and realize the music, with nothing else in mind.
“the productivity — it’s only that the Bach music is so fascinating, I can’t stop working, simply. I never try to be productive whatsoever.”
- While conducting and recording Suzuki cannot think of anything other than the music—not even the next bar—concentrating entirely on what is coming next and on what atmosphere must be realized in each part; he is not distracted by physical fatigue, drawing energy from the music itself.
“I can’t even think of the next bar. I always concentrate on what’s coming next”
- Suzuki's working philosophy is to always move on to the next project and never look back at old recordings, except when required to make programs or recommendations.
“Basically, I want always to move on to the next and never, never look back.”
Bach's passions were revolutionary dramatic works that broke sharply from simple liturgical tradition.
- Bach's St. John's Passion (1724) was a shocking innovation because the passion tradition had derived from simple liturgical Bible reading set to tones, and even by Bach's time the still-performed Johann Walter passion was essentially a single F major chord reciting texts; Bach's first Leipzig passion brought a dramatic, oratorio-style intensity no one expected.
“The very first passion of Bach in the Leipzig time was the St. John’s Passion, which was a really shocking experience for everyone, I thought.”
- Bach's larger vocal works were neglected until Mendelssohn partly because the improvisatory continuo practice essential to the passions had become completely extinct by Mendelssohn's time; Mendelssohn had to harmonize the continuo part and add brass and wind to fulfill it, and he treated the passion mainly as storytelling, cutting most arias, making his revival fundamentally different from modern historically-informed performance.
“The improvisative parts of the continuo could not be understood anymore by the time of Mendelssohn.”
Bach's organ works and passions reflect specific regional instrumental characteristics and historical performance constraints.
- Organs in Bach's region of Saxony and Thuringia had a different character from northern Germany, Italy, or France, with many stringy stops whose high overtones resemble string instruments, a character that is fundamentally important to Bach's organ music—yet no single extant organ from that time can play all of Bach's organ works because his composition always surpassed the organs available.
“They had many stringy stops, registers. Stringy sound contains a lot of high overtones... That character is very important for Bach’s organ music”
- The quality of a Bach organ depends heavily on how it has been restored: historic organs were Romanticized in the 19th century to suit the era's taste and then re-restored in the 20th century toward their original 17th/18th-century state, so the manner of restoration—as with the Martinikerk Groningen Schnitger organ restored by Jürgen Ahrend—is the key point.
“in the 19th century, all over, the historic organs were renovated according to the musical taste of that time... How to restore is a really key point, actually.”
- Bach heard his own large-scale masterworks only a few times: there is no evidence he ever performed the B-Minor Mass, he performed the St. Matthew's Passion at least three times, and St. John about four or five times.
“there is no evidence that he performed B-Minor Mass... St. Matthew’s Passion, he performed at least three times, I think. St. John, four or five times”
- Citing Bach specialist Michael Marissen, Suzuki argues the Brandenburg Concertos symbolize social hierarchy: No. 1's two horns symbolize the court's dignity, No. 2's trumpet/oboe/recorder/violin represent instruments any stadtpfeifer must master, and No. 3, dominated by threes (three violins, violas, cellos), deliberately leaves the second movement as a single bar so Bach himself could improvise it—essentially a job-application offer to the Berlin Graf.
“Michael Marissen, has written that Brandenburg Concerto was a symbol. His intention was to represent the social hierarchy.”
Bach's music contains inexplicable puzzles that resist final understanding no matter how deeply one works.
- Bach's music always contains puzzles and enigmas that can never be fully answered (such as why and how the unfinished Art of Fugue was written); the more one works to understand Bach's mind, the more distant a full grasp becomes.
“Bach’s music has always some kind of puzzles and enigma, so that you can never get an answer to all those unknown aspects of Bach.”
- After 55 years with Bach, Suzuki says Bach has become his life—he lives inside Bach's music and therefore can never judge it from the outside; living without Bach's music or any music is not thinkable for him.
“Bach is my life, actually, so familiar. I am living inside of Bach’s music, so I can never judge it from the outside.”
Calvinist theology supports both sacred devotion and cultural activity as expressions of God's grace.
- Suzuki credits being Calvinist for his outlook because Calvin was one of the first reformers to acknowledge the value of activity and culture in this world (not only heaven); though Calvin limited congregational singing to psalms, outside the church he supported cultural activity like publishing and arranging psalms, allowing cultural work to be evaluated under the notion of God's general grace.
“Calvin was one of the first reformers who acknowledged the value of the activity and culture of this world, not only in that world in heaven.”
- During Bach's time in Calvinist Köthen he composed mainly secular works because he had no opportunity to write Lutheran cantatas; while he may have been happy composing organ, instrumental, and secular works, his desire to do more Lutheran church work was a reason he moved to Leipzig.
“he didn’t have a chance to compose any Lutheran cantata at the time... probably he wished to do more work in the Lutheran world... That’s why he moved to Leipzig, I think.”