What this covers
Neil Turok is a professor at the University of Edinburgh where he holds the Higgs Chair of Theoretical Physics. He acted as the director of Perimeter Institute from 2008 to 2019 and now holds the Carlo Fidani Roger Penrose Distinguished Visiting Research Chair in Theoretical Physics at PI.
In this episode of Conversations at the Perimeter, he talks about his recent work that describes the Big Bang, how his research has been influenced by Stephen Hawking, and why he chooses to work on theories that have the potential to be proven wrong.
He also talks about his time as director of Perimeter Institute and describes the strategies he used to create a culture and community capable of fostering breakthroughs. It's a fascinating conversation, and Neil is uniquely gifted in describing both the biggest questions in theoretical physics and the best strategies for answering them.
Conversations at the Perimeter is co-hosted by Perimeter Teaching Faculty member Lauren Hayward and journalist-turned-science communicator Colin Hunter. In each episode, they chat with a guest scientist about their research, the challenges they encounter, and the drive that keeps them searching for answers.
The podcast is produced by the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics, a not-for-profit, charitable organization supported by a unique public-private model, including the Governments of Ontario and Canada. Perimeter Institute acknowledges that it is situated on the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe, Haudenosaunee, and Neutral peoples. Perimeter’s educational outreach initiatives, including Conversations at the Perimeter, are made possible in part by the support of donors like you.
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Turok argues that theoretical physics has lost its way by pursuing increasingly complex unfalsifiable theories, when nature's observed simplicity and precision point toward deep universal principles that are minimalist, highly constraining, and testable—particularly gravitational entropy applied to the Big Bang and cosmic structure.
- Modern theoretical frameworks (Grand Unified Theory, String Theory, M-Theory) have produced zero verified predictions despite 40 years of effort, while observations reveal striking minimalism at both small and large scales
- Stephen Hawking's gravitational entropy concept, properly applied without inflation or extra particles, explains the universe's large-scale structure and can be tested within 5 years through neutrino mass measurements
- The field's shift toward unmeasurable, unfalsifiable research stems from academic incentive structures that reward publications and grants over connection to reality, requiring institutional reform to support risky, testable work
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Observations at both small scales (Large Hadron Collider) and large scales (cosmological surveys) reveal striking minimalism: no new particles have been discovered, and the universe appears as simple as possible while still producing galaxies, stars, and observed structures.
“we don't find any more part we have not found any more particles um in probing the universe at very high energies now at the Large Hadron Collider and on large scales in the universe the universe appears to be more or less as simple as it possibly could be and still give rise to galaxies and stars and uh the structures we observe”
Theoretical physics should prioritize connection to observations; theorists who justify ignoring observations by claiming mathematical correctness are making a dangerous assumption that their mathematical framework is sound, when in fact mathematicians can very easily diverge from reality.
“I'm very critical of such point of view because I think you can really easily go wrong in your mathematical assumptions um uh and and very quickly just diverge from anything to do with reality you need to keep an eye one eye on the observations it may not be in you know very detail very much detail uh you don't need to get involved in experiments or data analysis or whatever but you need to pay very close attention to you know major observational results if you are to actually build a successful theoretical physics framework um”
Since the early 1980s, major theoretical physics programs including Grand Unified Theory, Supersymmetric Theory, String Theory, Supergravity, and M-Theory have not produced a single verified prediction, despite being the dominant research directions in the field.
“since I started in theoretical physics in the early 80s there have been Great Hopes about a number of uh programs of research Grand unified theory super symmetric Theory String Theory super gravity M Theory and so on and I would have to say that these have not yet panned out uh it's very striking that there is not yet a single prediction uh which has uh been verified from any of these Frameworks”
The single-investigator grant model (where each researcher pursues grants to support their own team) creates competition and hierarchies that are destructive of creativity and originality; it prevents junior people from questioning senior researchers.
“what you're doing is deliberately putting individual researchers in competition with one another and deliberately creating hierarchies uh and I see this everywhere it's also become increasingly common in in Europe uh and elsewhere I'm sure and I think this this model of the you know single investigator at the top of a pyramid is actually very destructive of uh creativity originality questioning um you know because the more Junior people don't want to question the senior person who hold s the cash”
Students today are more risk-averse than previous generations due to economic uncertainty and reduced job security; this is understandable given real economic pressures but has been damaging to the field's ability to attract people willing to pursue risky, foundational research.
“young people today are much less secure than they were uh in my day as a student where I think we we felt that sort of if if whatever reason things don't work out you know there plenty of alternative options and we weren't nervous about um livelihoods in the same way they're very good economic reasons for that um you know the the the ability to find uh jobs is is uh certainly more difficult today than it was uh several decades ago”
Previous generations of scientists enjoyed much greater job security and didn't worry about grants or academic positions because advanced research was a privilege of a small elite; this security enabled bolder research pursuits.
“previously universities were really at least Advanced research was the um privilege of a very small number of people and as a result they had much greater job security and and uh didn't really worry about getting academic positions um so my professors never really worried about this at all uh I didn't have to get grants you know money was more or less just provided in the 60s”
Quantum gravity and the precise relationship between quantum mechanics and general relativity remain the least understood part of the Standard Model after 50-70 years of failed attempts; breakthroughs in this area remain rare and unpredictable, with no individual researcher reliably expected to solve it, but ongoing rigorous study positions researchers to recognize and extend any breakthrough when it occurs.
“the big uh Missing component in fundamental physics the part of the standard model if you like that we understand least is is quantum gravity so you're asking the right question um the problem is we don't know the answer uh yet and uh I would say the following that you know the the the sure bet over the next 10 20 years is that observations are going to continue to bear fruit um we're going to get more and more precise measurements of the fluctuations coming out of the Big Bang um and uh uh with that Precision you know we we have much greater power to test Theory so I think that's a very sensible Avenue for anyone to take is to get into Data analysis um interaction with observations modeling the observations and so on um people have not solved this problem for you know more than 50 years probably 70 5 years people have been trying to solve these problems and failing repeatedly so the chances of your actually making success very very small at best”
Hawking's foundational work on black hole entropy, gravitational entropy, and quantum aspects of black holes has been deeply influential across theoretical physics for decades, yet its implications remain poorly understood and Hawking himself may not have fully grasped the power of his own concepts.
“his ideas were so deep they have influenced the whole field for decades and the way I you know I think we're still struggling to understand what they mean uh and he was too uh we still don't really know what the entropy of a black hole means exactly we think it's to do with how many different ways there are to make a black hole but we we still can't quite put our finger on it um on exactly what it means and how it's compatible with all of the rest of physics but in our very recent work and this is with Le and boil at Perimeter um we've developed uh Steven Hawking's concept of entropy uh gravitational entropy to uh to apply to the universe uh the whole universe and uh and that's been really surprising and in the course of that study uh I've come to the conclusion that Steven himself uh underestimated the power of his own ideas”
Particle physicists have developed a habit over 50+ years of always postulating new particles whenever building new accelerators; this became normalized until it became standard to expect new particles would eventually unify the picture, but this assumption has not yielded results.
“I think what happened is that particle theory uh over the last um 50 years maybe longer got into the habit of always um postulating new particles um and to some extent this was natural because every time you built a new accelerator you discovered new particles and so this just became the norm is that you know we expect once in a while to add a few new particles and the hope arose that by adding these new particles at some point we would actually simplify the picture”
Recent theoretical work by Turok and colleagues (Le and Boyle at Perimeter Institute) has applied Stephen Hawking's concept of gravitational entropy to the entire universe, successfully calculating cosmic microwave background fluctuations with no free parameters and matching observational data precisely.
“using these same principles we've been able to calculate the fluctuations we now see in the cosmic microwave background and amazingly the the numbers come out correct we get the right size of fluctuations we get the right Spectrum uh without any free parameters at all um”
Inflation theory is a 'rag bag of models'—thousands of different inflation models, all tweaked and adjusted with many assumptions to fit observations, making it fundamentally unfalsifiable and therefore unscientific.
“inflation sort of to put it bluntly was the sort of rag bag of models um thousands of different models of inflation all of them sort of tweaked and adjusted and with lots of assumptions to sort of fit what we see in the universe”
Peter Higgs was able to contribute the Higgs mechanism to particle physics because he was aware of ideas from superconductivity; particle physicists had ignored superconductivity due to arrogance, believing materials science couldn't provide insights for fundamental physics.
“the higs the higs mechanism and the higs boson is a classic example where Peter higs was aware of ideas happening in superconductivity which were by and large ignored by particle physicists mainly because particle physicists were fairly arrogant and they couldn't possibly believe that somebody studying materials you know could actually give them a real insight uh but higs grabbed that insight and interpret it in terms of and incorporate it into particle physics and that was extremely profound and important development”
Because particle physicists and gravitational theorists typically work in isolation, particle physicists asking how many particles exist cannot answer without including gravity, and gravitational theorists asking about black hole entropy cannot answer without knowing the real particle spectrum; the integration of these fields through mutual constraints is essential for a complete physics.
“so particle physicists who are trying to understand how many particles there are in nature that question's meaningless unless you include gravity and gravitational theorists trying to understand the entropy of your black hole that question is meaningless unless you actually use the real number of particles in the world okay so I think that again the fact that Steven's entropy idea is seemed to be successful in describing a universe indicates that physics is truly unified um and and and not adjustable”
Local scale symmetry (the ability to change scales differently in different regions of spacetime while equations remain invariant) is a deep symmetry of Maxwell's equations and Dirac's equation; it is crucial for understanding the Big Bang because it allows the universe to contract to a singularity without the material components 'seeing' or being affected by that singularity.
“it's a it's a surprising fact that uh Photon of light is pretty much the same as a photon of x-rays or radio waves and they're all just uh scaled up or down versions of exactly the same thing that's a very deep symmetry of Maxwell's equations that it's so-called scale invariant and even more than that it's locally scale invariant so you can change the scale differently in different parts of space and time and the equation remain the same um this is why is that such a deep symmetry well to describe the Big Bang where everything came from a point if all the material in the universe was insensitive to the overall size of the universe as it is for Maxwell's Theory or actually for dra's Theory as well then the stuff in the universe doesn't know about the size of the universe at all so even though from our point of view all shrank to a point the stuff of which matter is made doesn't see uh the so-called Singularity and this makes the singularity possible to model mathematically”
Black holes have entropy proportional to their surface area, not their volume—a surprising fact because it implies that the number of ways to make a black hole depends on factors external to gravity; this creates a puzzle: why does the number of possible configurations not depend on the number of elementary particle types in the Standard Model?
“he said the a black hole which only has a mass an angular momentum and electric charge just certain numbers it has a black and it's featureless a black hole is essentially featureless object like an elementary particle but it can be huge um this black hole uh can be made in in in in so many ways now the weird thing about that statement is that surely the number of ways you can make a black hole depends on how many different Elementary particles there are you know I've got particles a if only got one type of particle I can make a certain black hole but if I've got two types of particles surely I there more ways to make a black hole so just assigning an entropy of a black hole immediately creates a puzzle why are there so many different particles in the standard model”
Inflation predicted long-wavelength gravitational waves (primordial gravitational waves) detectable through cosmic microwave background polarization; experiments initially claimed detection, but the result was later proven wrong, and subsequent precision measurements show nothing, making gravitational wave signals increasingly unlikely within 5 years.
“one of inflation's predictions was that there should be uh very long wavelength gravitational waves created as sort of Aftershock of this burst of expansion uh in the beginning of the universe and you could see these long wavelength gravitational waves through observing the polarization of the micro background Sky um and the measurements finally became accurate enough to see this effect initially they claimed they had seen it and so all all the inflationists were very excited and thought you know this is verification including Steven Hawking my my friend Steven Hawking uh bet me in public that or or he he we had a bet I I had bet they would not see it and they now claim to see it and so he wanted me to pay the BET and and I said you know all experiments require verific confirmation and uh and there were reasons to doubt this experiment in the end the experiment turned out to be wrong and uh now what's happened is that the latest experiments see nothing um and within 5 years or so the upper limit on these gravitational waves is going to get so low that I think most people um most sort of relatively unbiased people will draw the conclusion that inflation probably isn't the way to go”
String theory lacks the clear conceptual foundation and principles that Einstein's theory of general relativity possesses; instead, it relies on a 'follow your nose' approach where practitioners adjust interpretations and tweak the theory when encountering phenomena.
“string theory has lacked uh such principles um and it's more been more a question of sort of follow your nose and when you come across some phenomenon you sort of tweak the theory or you um adjust your interpret ation um”
Diversity (across countries, cultures, genders, and backgrounds) is important to institutional strength because it brings different perspectives and enables collision of ideas; diversity prevents monoculture and promotes original thinking.
“I think furthermore they need to be very diverse I think diversity is very often a source of uh strength and enthusiasm and uh you know difference is very um um not just it's it's it encourages new ways of thinking it's a common place but very often in physics the best new ideas come about when two different strands of thought Collide and suddenly realize that the other one has some insight they can benefit from”
Quantum vacuum fluctuations in the standard model have infinite energy when summed, which creates a physical paradox because gravity couples to all energy and would 'see' this infinity; physicists have dealt with this by 'sweeping it under the rug' through renormalization, which Turok views as an unsatisfactory state of physics.
“if you add up all the energy in these vacuum zero point fluctuations it's infinite um and that doesn't make any sense because gravity couples to energy and gravity would see that Infinity so so for decades we've been sweeping this under the rug and pretending it's not really there and socalled renormalizing it away and and this is very uh this is not a good State of Affairs because it means we do not have a physical picture of what's going on in the vacuum um”
Einstein's theory of general relativity succeeds as a conceptual and mathematical framework because it is grounded in a clear principle: curved spacetime tells matter how to move, and matter tells spacetime how to curve (John Wheeler's formulation), making the theory intuitive, powerful, and highly predictive.
“in Einstein's theory the conception was that you have curved SpaceTime and this curved SpaceTime tells matter how to move and in turn the matter tells the SpaceTime how to curve that that's how John Wheeler famously described it and those words you know besid besides being very beautiful they they capture a concept of how the physical world Works which is very intuitive and very powerful and when it's translated into mathematics it becomes highly predictive”
The field of theoretical physics has become increasingly massified and standardized; curricula have become dull and initiative is not rewarded, a trend visible across all higher education.
“the curriculum has become very standardized and rather dull and initiative is not rewarded so this is not in isolation you know it's it it's everywhere this sort of massification and then standardization and loss of creativity um”
Widening access to advanced research (democratizing who can pursue it) is good because it increases the talent pool and should accelerate progress, but it has come with increased standardization and prescription, which is damaging.
“what has come along with that is much more standardization and uh and uh you know prescription uh telling young people you've got to do ABC to get a job and I think that's very uh that's that's been damaging uh”
The number of particle generations (3 generations × 16 particles = 48 particles) in the Standard Model is not arbitrary but is fixed by consistency with gravity; if gravitational entropy applies correctly to the universe, changing the particle count would destroy the theory's cancellations and agreements.
“we know there are three generations of particles there 16 particles per generation that number should be forced On You by the fact the standard model couples to gravity if it is then the whole thing is absolutely self-contained and you you just can't separate these puzzles from each other so particle physicists who are trying to understand how many particles there are in nature that question's meaningless unless you include gravity and gravitational theorists trying to understand the entropy of your black hole that question is meaningless unless you actually use the real number of particles in the world okay so I think that again the fact that Steven's entropy idea is seemed to be successful in describing a universe indicates that physics is truly unified um and and and not adjustable you know and so if all of this works I would say we will be pretty sure that this is the entirety of physics because if you add another particle you're going to spoil all these cancellations and agreements”
The most promising avenue for research in quantum gravity and cosmology combines observational data analysis with theoretical refinement; ongoing measurements of cosmic microwave background fluctuations will provide unprecedented precision for testing theories over the next 10-20 years, making observational work a 'sure bet' compared to speculative fundamental theory.
“the the the sure bet over the next 10 20 years is that observations are going to continue to bear fruit um we're going to get more and more precise measurements of the fluctuations coming out of the Big Bang um and uh uh with that Precision you know we we have much greater power to test Theory so I think that's a very sensible Avenue for anyone to take is to get into Data analysis um interaction with observations modeling the observations and so on”
Attempting to describe the universe using the S-Matrix formalism (designed for particle collision physics) is misguided because the cosmos has a very different structure: it has a starting point (Big Bang) and an ending point (dominated by dark energy), making the S-Matrix framework inapplicable.
“in cosmology you know quite a popular Endeavor in string theory has been to uh try to picture the universe as if it was what's called an SM Matrix an SM Matrix is something used to describe particle collisions you know things come in and things come out um but uh I think the the way the cosmos Works seems very very different to an S Matrix you know there was a at least in the part of the universe we we can see there was a starting point and you know there's this finishing point which is uh which is uh dominated by the energy in empty space the cosmological constant sometimes called the dark energy um and so I think trying to shoehorn the universe into a preconceived picture which was designed for particle physics experiment to me seems you know a sort of search for a principle but not one that's particularly likely to to work um”
An institution's role is to challenge researchers to be adventurous and ambitious rather than judge them constantly; conventional metrics (publications, citations, conference talks) are symptoms of physics, not its essence.
“I see it the job of a institution is more to challenge people to really be adventurous and ambitious rather than to judge them uh all the time and and um you know uh particularly on criteria like Publications citations uh conference talks given and all that you know these are really the sort of uh uh these are more the symptoms of O of physics they're not the essence of what we're trying to do”
A testable prediction from Turok's framework: right-handed neutrinos are the dark matter, one of the light neutrino generations is massless, and these hypotheses can be tested within 5 years through galaxy clustering observations and computational modeling.
“there are ideas again for interpreting the meaning of that you know what is this stuff in empty space um and uh then we have the Dark Matter uh very good observation showing us that most of the matter in galaxies is doesn't interact with light and we have some very interesting candidates for the Dark Matter some of which are very minimal like uh neutrinos we we know neutrinos exist and it's a very simple and natural idea that one of the uh so-called right-handed neutrinos is the dark matter and the exciting thing is that that hypothesis is possible to test um within the next 5 years or so people are projecting that that through observations of the of Galaxy clustering one can actually uh detect even very tiny um light neutrino masses and uh if the right-handed nut if one of the right-and neutrinos is the dark matter and if it's stable then it follows as a consequence that one of the light neutrinos is massless and that should be possible to confirm within the next 5 years”
Living up to the opportunity and miracle of life requires facing scary realities and dealing well with them; this applies to physics research, where pursuing testable theories is more aligned with responsible citizenship than seeking safety in unfalsifiable frameworks.
“and I think part of just essentially being a responsible citizen uh and and living up to the opportunity of Life which we all you know we all possess as a miracle we all have this amazing thing going life and I think just living up to that is facing the scary realities and trying to uh you know deal well with them um”
Young people with unusual personalities or characteristics are often the most original thinkers; institutional support should make space for these unusual people and protect them from standard-conforming pressures.
“the people who often are most original are very often odd in certain respects they are unusual people and they're not necessarily very good at coping with you know uh the everyday rigors of of life and so it's very important that any Community uh which Fosters Talent uh be specially supportive of people who are unusual in whatever respect um so I think that's essential uh and again by supporting unusual people different people that's probably the best way of ensuring the field isn't a monoculture”
A better institutional structure is an inverted pyramid where senior researchers support junior researchers (who are 'the flowers on the tree'), rather than junior researchers working under senior principal investigators.
“I much prefer a much flatter structure um and and actually conceptually I think a much better picture is a inverted pyramid where the senior people if you like are at the bottom and their job is precisely to support uh the younger people and you know the flowers on the tree they can be the root but the flowers on the tree are the young people and that's really the where where the emphasis should be”
Research on refining understanding of Einstein's gravity theory and quantum mechanics through carefully considered problems—even without solving fundamental puzzles—is never wasted; such work is analogous to a musician studying and reinterpreting classical compositions, providing both intellectual reward and preparation for contributing to breakthroughs.
“pick problems which are instructive where you are dealing with gravity and sort of refining your understanding of Einstein's theory and of quantum mechanics um if you like think about it as a musician you know you you we have all these wonderful works by classical composers and it's great uh practice um as well as very rewarding just to sort of review those and and and play give them your own Spin and find better ways of explaining them and so on and so forth and I think that kind of work is never wasted”
Students in physics should appreciate the wonder and miracle of the connection between theoretical physics and reality, recognizing that this is the deepest magic of the field; students who do not pursue or aspire to this connection miss out on the essential reward of physics.
“it's particularly important for students to sort of um appreciate the the the Wonder the sort of miracle that theoretical physics is that when it does connect to reality uh it's quite magical um and I think the students who don't uh pursue that or or aspire to that are really missing out on a lot um uh that that one should you know never forget that the real magic in the subject is when it connects to observations”
Theoretical physics is the cheapest science (requiring only blackboard, chalk, and occasional computer) and is the most effective in terms of predictive power; therefore, if any science can successfully reorganize to prioritize creativity and remove standardization, it should be theoretical physics, and it should set the example for all science.
“theoretical physics is very fortunate because it's such a cheap field you know we just need a Blackboard and chalk and occasionally a computer uh it's really a very cheap field so if anybody is going to recreate you know the organization of science more optimally it has to be theoretical physics you know we we have one of the most effective of all Sciences if not the most effective in terms of predictions theoretical physics you know can't be matched um we have the cheapest uh we have the the the easiest the most universal easiest to access you don't need a lab you know you you can come to a summer school and learn some ideas and and you know they may enable you to write a very interesting paper so theoretical physics should be setting the example for the rest of science um”
To recruit rare talent, Turok sought people with unconventional career paths who had done something unexpected, rather than following conventional application review processes.
“it was really being proactive I also learned that the senior physicists who were advising us uh weren't often weren't always or or even often the best source of ideas as to who to hire because um usually they had their own field and their own visibility you know region that was visible to them was very limited and uh secondly if they saw somebody really good they thought was really good they would try and hiire them themselves and and not recommend them to us so um that was interesting so I think the short short answer was just by really keeping eyes and ears open and looking for very unusual people who maybe had unconventional career paths”
Reality is scary; people are naturally inclined to avoid confronting reality and uncertainty, which explains why many researchers prefer to work on mathematical frameworks that cannot be disproven rather than risk empirical falsification.
“you know it's a funny thing but reality is scary I don't quite know how to put it but sometimes when you for example just go out into nature you know be it a you know snowy field in the middle of winter in Canada or you're looking you're hiking in some you know tall mountain range or something or or you just look into empty space from Earth you know and you think wow this is this is this is real you know that that can feel scary uh and and so reality is scary um”
At Perimeter Institute, Turok implemented a rule that young faculty should spend no more than 20% of their time on administrative duties (including teaching, mentoring, grant applications), compared to the standard at most universities where young faculty are immediately loaded with such responsibilities.
“one of the rules we introduc used is that as a young faculty member you should not spend more than 20% of your time on administrative Duty so that includes teaching mentoring um applying for Grants and that's extremely unusual because most universities you know when a young faculty member arrives they're immediately loaded with teaching and Grant applications”
A physicist applying logic to reality has a 'direct line to God' (meaning direct access to fundamental truth), whereas mathematicians make internal frameworks without that direct line; physicists have uncovered a fundamental feature of existence—that our minds can make sense of reality.
“somebody said this to me a few days ago um you know mathematicians make their Frameworks and do their calculations but physicists somehow have a direct line to God okay now I don't believe in God I'm not religious uh at least not in any organized sense but um uh but I think there's a kind of element of Truth in that that somehow physicists have uncovered a fundamental feature of existence which is this strange ability of our minds to really make sense of what's around us uh it's a very deep puzzle and I think if you like the best way we can appreciate that puzzle and and further it and uh pay it homage almost is to is to practice that to make sure we what you know what we do does it or to try to relate the mathematics we do to to the real world”
Young researchers should pursue problems that genuinely appeal to them even if risky, while maintaining a backup plan; having backup plans provides security that enables bolder research choices.
“a very healthy attitude often is to say look I'm going to try something which sounds appealing um exciting it may be risky uh you know and I'll have a backup plan if this if this doesn't work if it's proven wrong well there's so many other wonderful things to do in life you don't have to follow the conventional path um”
When teaching physics in Senegal, a student (trained in mathematics but not physics) initially thought physics was just mathematical manipulation until Turok explained that physics is logic applied to nature; then the student's understanding transformed.
“at some point he said to me oh you mean physics is just logic and I said yes that's exactly what it is it's logic applied to Nature he said ah now I get it right and then he got very interested”
Understanding how the world works makes people feel more empowered and responsible; it is more empowering to understand nature than to be at its mercy.
“if you understand the world you're certainly much more empowered than if you're just kind of at its Mercy uh and so I think this understanding between different cultures different peoples fundamental understanding of the world is very empowering is very unifying it makes us all feel you know we're part of the same Enterprise um”
People across cultures naturally ask the same fundamental physics questions (about stars, light, structure of matter) because we all live in the same universe and are puzzled by the same phenomena; this universality of questions is a cultural unifier.
“people very naturally ask the same questions uh it's because we all live in the same universe and we're all sort of puzzled and Amazed by the same natural phenomena uh and and so that is the cultural unifier you know when it is the realization that the phenomena which are just around us all the time and which are miraculous in various ways you know that we can share this we all do share it and we can discuss with each other and and share our understanding of how that works”
As a graduate student, Turok had doubts about whether Grand Unified theories and String Theory were genuine insights into reality or just interesting games; he maintained a backup plan (becoming a wildlife warden in East Africa) based on these doubts.
“it was kind of a game people were playing interesting game but it somehow didn't really ring true uh gr unified theories or string theories never really felt to me like they were a genuine insight into reality um that's just a feeling not necessarily one that you should trust but as a result of that I I basically said to myself look if I don't um make it in theoretical physics if I'm not able to make a good contribution you know my dream was I would go and be a uh a wild a wildlife uh warden in a in a game Park in East Africa”
When recruiting young faculty, Turok found that senior physicists' recommendations were unreliable because they had limited visibility to their own fields and would not recommend strong people they wanted to hire themselves.
“I also learned that the senior physicists who were advising us uh weren't often weren't always or or even often the best source of ideas as to who to hire because um usually they had their own field and their own visibility you know region that was visible to them was very limited and uh secondly if they saw somebody really good they thought was really good they would try and hiire them themselves and and not recommend them to us”
Turok initially pursued string theory research (developing a model of colliding branes in extra dimensions as a competitor to inflation), but over time realized the entire framework was too complex, especially as observations simplified and predicted inflation signals disappeared.
“like most other people I was very excited maybe this is Unified framework that really will explain everything it's a theory of everything and I did my best to try to reconcile String Theory with cosmology so we made a model of colliding brains in extra dimensions and I would say at that point I was beginning not really to believe I don't I didn't necessarily believe this framework but I thought it was um an interesting exercise to create uh a Ral a competitor to the most popular Theory which was called inflation um and and and hopefully one that was less adjustable and more connected to very fundamental physics you know as as string theory was quantum gravity and so on but I think the realization slowly dawned that you know this whole framework was too complex um and um especially as the observations have become simpler and simpler and the kind of signals you would have expected from inflation have progressively gone away”
Physicists should not feel moral responsibility to pursue research that explains reality, but should be honest with themselves about their motivations; if someone enjoys mathematical games, they should do that well rather than feel guilty.
“I don't think there's a much of a moral responsibility I see it more as a responsibility to yourself you know don't don't delude yourself I guess that would be my my overriding message is uh if you like playing with mathematical Frameworks uh and if you're good at it then by all means do it because the work you do will be good and other people will draw you know may well draw some interesting physical conclusions even if your work is just mathematical uh so I I would never denigrate anyone for doing something they enjoy uh especially when they're doing it well um”
When Turok was director of Perimeter Institute, his responsibility for deciding which research areas to invest in made him critically assess the entire field of theoretical physics and identify which programs were genuinely promising.
“and I think especially when I was working at Perimeter and I had the responsibility as director of sort of deciding which field were worthwhile to invest in uh that made me look very critically at the whole field of theoretical physics and try to assess you know um where the best prospects were and of course that influenced my research um”
Turok's parents were imprisoned for political beliefs and later elected to Parliament; this taught him that one should not compromise core beliefs, even when facing opposition.
“my parents both went to jail for their political beliefs and then they came out of jail and and a few decades later were elected to Parliament and both so you know they had a complete turnaround where their beliefs actually uh LED them into positions of responsibility uh uh in government”
As a postdoc, Turok had a recurring nightmare of getting a faculty position in his original London department, which would suggest the academic career was not ultimately his goal despite pursuing it.
“when I was a postto in California um I used to have a recurring sort of nightmare which and the nightmare was that I actually got a faculty position back in my original Department in London uh that I'd be walking down the corridor and I'd see these names on on on the doors and and I came to this door and my name was on it and I woke up you know in a SW cold sweat oh no I'm a faculty member um so the academic career you know is not the Pinnacle of of Human Experience um”