The Bible and Western Culture - Utopia: Between Heaven and Earth
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Thomas More's Utopia represents a backward-looking conservative critique of Renaissance commercialism that borrows selectively from classical and Christian traditions to construct a static, monastically-ordered ideal society as a yardstick for measuring contemporary political failure, rather than a blueprint for future progress.
- More synthesizes Platonic and Aristotelian philosophy with Christian theology, prioritizing Jerusalem over Athens while rejecting Platonic perfectionism in favor of a doctrine of original sin
- More's utopia abolishes commerce, money, and private property to counter the 'sheep that eat men'—the enclosure movement and commercial capitalism that he saw as the root of social disorder
- More intends utopia as a measuring stick to judge contemporary society as deficient, not as a realizable future state; his conservatism was inadequate to prepare Europe for the coming Reformation
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More incorporates a strong element of Epicureanism into Utopia—the philosophical doctrine that pleasure is the only good—but only within bounds of natural reason and revealed religion, allowing simple, natural pleasures unmixed with sin.
“there's a very strong element of epicureanism epicureanism is the philosophical doctrine that pleasure is the only good now moore adopts that which is a strange thing for a christian state to adopt but only up to a point within the bounds of natural reason and also within the bounds of revealed religion uh epicureanism pleasure is a good thing provided it meets both of those two standards so for example in utopia the utopian people like simple pleasures that are unmixed with any kind of sin”
More borrows the just war doctrine from Aquinas, holding that wars of aggression are unjust but wars of defense are just, and the utopians go to war only under three circumstances: defense against invasion, defense of friendly nations, and deliverance of weak states from tyranny.
“he borrows the just war doctrine from aquinas christians on the whole are not very violent at least in the theological sense and yet there have been certain christian thinkers who have tried to sketch out the circumstances under which violence is permissible or perhaps a moral obligation this is the idea of a just war wars of aggression are unjust but wars of defense are for example just moore picks this doctrine up and the utopians while they hate war will in fact go to war if they are sufficiently provoked and they will go to war under three circumstances one to defend themselves two to defend a friendly country and this is not the same thing as a country with which they have a treaty the utopians do not sign treaties because they do not trust them they said if you're going to be honest and peaceful you wouldn't bother write a treaty up at all on the other hand if you were being duplicitous and dishonest and corrupt then you write up a treaty and break it so what's the point of writing up treaties we just don't invade people get used to it so the utopians only go to war if they are invaded if someone with whom they are their friendly relations if they are invaded they will help defend against an aggressor and third to deliver a weak state from tyranny”
More talks of sheep eating men—referring to the enclosure movement in English economics and politics which drove people off the land, allowing large-scale commerce but killing displaced people who could no longer feed themselves and died terrible deaths in cities.
“moore talks in the beginning of the book about the sheep that eat men and what he's doing there is referring to the enclosure movement that was a movement in english economics and politics which drove people off the land and allowed people to engage in the large-scale world trade moore described these as the sheep that eat men they eat men because they drive people off the land where they can't eat anymore and the sheep flourish but people go to cities and die”
Thomas More, like his friend Erasmus, was remarkable for his tolerance and conservatism—not conservatism regarding particular political issues, but religious conservatism rooted in reluctance to change and his belief as a Catholic during the Reformation.
“like his friend erasmus thomas more was remarkable for his tolerance and conservatism not in the sense that you might think of conservatism today but rather in his reluctance to change not specifically with reference to particular political issues but mostly his religious conservatism he maintained a position his position as a believing catholic during the time the earlier stages of the lutheran reformation”
In Utopian society, hedonism and pleasure are advocated within the bounds of Scripture and reason; additionally, certain people engage in public service through asceticism—some eat meat and marry while doing difficult public service, others remain chaste and eat only vegetables, thought to be holier but not wiser.
“hedonism is advocated by utopians but only within the bounds of scripture and only within the bounds of reason on the other hand there is a certain degree of asceticism which is exclusively the product which is exclusively the product of religion there are two groups of people who engage in public service as a means to glorify god and they do it because they think that by sacrificing things in this world by sacrificing worldly pleasures they will get transcendental rewards and that god will favor that sort of behavior what they do is this these two groups of people one the more worldly but still hardly profane one group eats meat and gets married and does various kinds of difficult public service the other kind remains chaste they do not eat meat they only eat vegetable food and they are thought of as being holier but not quite as wise”
More's advocacy for abolishing commerce was considered utopian in the pejorative sense during the Renaissance because the new world had been discovered, scientific and religious changes were underway, and the nation-state era was established—making the elimination of commerce seem impossible.
“in some ways because thomas more is writing utopia in 1516 right the renaissance is well underway the era of the nation-state is here the new world has been found the idea of abolishing commerce the idea that commerce is leading us down the road to perdition is in the pejorative sense utopian right and says that you could never possibly eliminate that”
In More's Utopian society, atheists are not persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, or punished with death, but are prohibited from holding public office and giving testimony because they cannot swear by God, representing a violation of the Aristotelian mean of religious zeal.
“atheists are looked upon with great disfavor but they are not burned they are not imprisoned or tortured or they don't have any punishment inflicted on them atheists are prohibited from holding public office and they're also prohibited from giving testimony because you have to swear by god and if you don't believe in god then it seems to undercut the force of an oath key thing for moore though in his view of atheism is that that would be an example of transgressing the aristotelian mean from a moderate amount of religious zeal and religious insight to none whatever”
The concept of sin is absent from Platonic and Aristotelian moral discourse, and this leads to characteristic errors in classical philosophy—particularly Plato's assumption that with the Form of the Good and philosopher-kings in place, evil will be eliminated.
“the first and most obvious is the idea of sin plato aristotle don't talk much about sin it's not within the vocabulary of moral discourse and that leads in moore's view to certain characteristic errors particularly of the plaintiffs for whom he has a very high regard for example in plato's republic it is assumed that no one will ever do any evil once you have the form of the good and the philosopher king knows what everyone is supposed to do then he orders society properly gives everyone a good education and thereafter there's no evil and there's no no transgression”
More is more realistic than Plato about human nature: he does not believe humans are perfectable, and this belief in human imperfectibility is another formulation of the doctrine of original sin.
“more is far more realistic than that he is not willing to believe that human beings are perfectable and the belief that human beings are not perfectable is in fact another way of formulating the idea of original sin if you think that people are perfectable you are a greek if you think that human society cannot be perfected no matter how many laws we pass and no matter how many institutions we change then like it or not one way or another you believe in sin moore believes in sin”
Thomas More attempted to braid together the traditions of Athens (Greek philosophy) and Jerusalem (Christian theology), maintaining fidelity to Jerusalem while preserving what is best in Athens, with the principle 'god wins all ties.'
“he represents a a sort of summation of the tradition of western political thought and moral thought and he's trying to bring together to braid together the traditions that come out of jerusalem and athens taking what is best in both and yet maintaining a fidelity to the tradition that comes out of jerusalem over the tradition that comes out of athens in other words god wins all ties”
Like Plato, More abolishes private property in Utopia, viewing commerce and money as having a corrupting ethical influence on society by distracting people's passions and causing internal strife.
“like plato more in his utopia abolish his private property and this is of course this is a more important issue than you might immediately suspect from reading the book i'll come back towards the end of the the lecture to the question of private property and private ownership but thomas more advocated a sort of communism he wanted to abolish money and he wanted to abolish commerce he thought commerce and money had a bad ethical influence on society like plato he thought that it distracted people's attention distracted people's passions and caused internal strife to a political order”
The Christian humanist uses Utopia to look at contemporary governments and find them wanting, embodying the Scriptural principle 'you have been weighed in the balance and found wanting.'
“utopia does give the christian humanist a standard by which to look around at the contemporary governments in the world and find them lacking so that's the key question here you have been weighed in the balance and found wanting that is the way moore looks at contemporary political order”
In Book II, Utopia is an island resembling England, with a capital city like London next to a river like the Thames, and 54 roughly identical cities with identical buildings and dress, representing More's vision of what England would be if its corruptions were eliminated.
“we find here the details of utopian life are remarkably like a perfect england turns out that utopia is an island just like england and it turns out it has a large capital city which is remarkably like london and it's next to a river that's remarkably like the thames are you getting the picture here he is not suggesting that we can perfect england but rather that this is what england would be if its corruptions were eliminated it gives us a yardstick by which to judge contemporary politics now there are 54 cities and they are a roughly identical size and they have roughly identical buildings”
The utopians hate war and avoid it when possible, but when forced to wage war they do so to win; because they keep money in reserve while using none internally, they can afford to pay mercenaries the highest wages and encourage professional soldiers to kill each other, viewing mercenary death as beneficial to humanity.
“the utopians hate war and avoid it when they can but when they have to have a war they do it and they're going to win since they have been keeping their money in reserve they don't use any money they don't use gold or silver or gems they can pay mercenaries the largest possible wages and they think it's a great thing because they say that any group of people that will professionally kill people should be encouraged to go get themselves killed he says that would be a benefit to the entire human human race if we just get them to all kill each other the utopians will pay for it so we'll give money to both sides have them all kill each other”
In the Dialogue of Counsel (Book I), Raphael argues that if he advised a king on practical policy (like reducing theft through mercy rather than capital punishment), the king would not listen and Raphael would find himself in hot water, suggesting that wise men cannot give good advice in politics because Machiavellian leaders and advisors succeed where honest ones fail.
“rayfield says no i do not think that is the case in fact the active life would only get me killed and i could do no one any good and then i give a couple of examples he says for example the case of theft being a capital crime rafil says look capital punishment for theft is far too great a sentence in fact it causes people to commit murders they wouldn't commit because they have nothing to lose but in addition to that it's simply unjust and unkind and lacking in mercy he says the problem with your society lies not on the fact that you have theft but lies in the fact that you have gold and silver and you have greed and luxury and that's what causes theft”
Thomas More was contemplating entering King Henry VIII's service while writing Utopia while away on a diplomatic mission in the Netherlands; he desperately did not want the role of Chancellor of England (equivalent to Prime Minister), yet inevitably took it, creating a lived parallel to the dilemma posed in Utopia's first book.
“keep in mind thomas moore's actual life when you do this he had just he uh this book is written while moore is away in the netherlands on a diplomatic mission and he is thinking about entering the king's service for the remainder of his life and he doesn't want to it is very clear that more wants to go back to the library right and read more sacred books and he would like to think a lot and he would also be willing to do something to earn a living say be an honest judge or something like that but he doesn't want to be the chancellor of england which is something like being the prime minister of england because he desperately does not want this job naturally he gets it”
More borrows the Aristotelian idea of the family as the minimal unit of society (against Plato's abolition of the family), which is more consistent with Scripture and Christian tradition.
“there's also the idea of the family this is something plato left out of his republic if you remember the fact that he abolishes private property but also abolishes the private family and the nuclear family aristotle says plato is wrong aristotle says in the politics that the family is the minimal unit of society well moore lifts that and takes it because it's so much more consistent with scripture with christian traditions”
In understanding More's intellectual genealogy, scholars should consult Plato's Laws as well as the Republic, because Plato changed his political thinking considerably from the Republic to the Laws, and More lifts concessions to human imperfection wholesale from Plato's Laws.
“you should not only look at plato's republic those of you that want to trace out the intellectual genealogy the intellectual lineage of thomas moore's utopia i should i would emphasize that you should have a look at plato's laws as well plato changed his political thinking quite considerably from the middle period in which he writes the republic to the end of his life the last dialogue is called the laws it's also one of the longest of the dialogues that is an attempt to reformulate his conception of political order and in plato's laws many concessions are made to the imperfections of human nature which more lifts wholesale from that part of plato”
Thomas More conceived of an ideal society as a static one that is immune to change and to history.
“i would say that thomas more has in mind in his utopia a static society which is immune to change in some ways thomas more thinks that a good society is one which will be immune to history”
More makes concessions to Plato's tradition by incorporating feminism in Utopia—allowing women the same education as men and making them equally responsible for running and defending the state.
“thomas moore makes other concessions to the platonic tradition things like feminism he allows women to get the same education as men they are both responsible for running the state but in particular for defending the state if it is attacked”
More emphasizes the labor theory of value—the idea that all valuable things come from work—which will later become important in the political economy of Locke and Hobbes, and has utopian and Christian roots.
“he emphasizes the labor theory of value which is going to become so important when we do when you study lock later on or when you study people like hobbes in english political economy the labor theory of value the idea that all valuable things in the world come from work is going to be very important it actually has utopian and christian roots”
The next great achievement in Western political and moral thinking will require a new set of forward-looking ideas, which will emerge only a few years after More in the work of Martin Luther—not from conservative thinkers but from those embracing change.
“the next great achievement in political and moral thinking in the west will have to forge a new set of ideas and a new set of forward-looking thoughts this new set of forward-looking thoughts will be only a few years after thomas more and these new forward-looking conceptions will we found in the work of martin luther”
In Utopia, politics is organized hierarchically mirroring natural social hierarchy, with the family (30 people including multiple generations) as the minimal unit, the eldest male (paterfamilias) representing the whole family, groups of 30 families electing a phylak (magistrate), phylaks electing a tranibor, and the prince elected by phyloks.
“within these cities politics is organized in a hierarchical way that he thinks mirrors the natural hierarchy of society the family is the minimal unit of society the eldest male speaks for the whole family this is important the idea of the individual as being the minimal unit of society that's not going to become important until the enlightenment we don't have a thorough going idea a robust idea of individuality yet so we still have the oldest male head of household the pattern familias as representing the entire family which in this case numbers about 30 people we have several generations together an old-fashioned extended conception of the family as well now each 30 families gets together and they elect a magistrate called a phylak and then each fight then the file arcs get together and they choose another magistrate above them called the tranibor and in addition there is a prince that rules the entire society and he is elected by the philox”
Raphael Hythlodaeus is a mariner, explorer, and theorist who has traveled the world including to Utopia; he is the key figure in More's Utopia, but remarkably has a contemplative rather than practical preference despite his worldly experience.
“we get introduced to raphael hethalidae he's a mariner who has been across the world he has a wide knowledge of geography and politics and he's an exceptionally learned man for a practical man and that's the key focus there the renaissance emphasis on a man being able to do all things to be both an explorer and a political theorist and a practical politician all of them are brought together in rayfield but strangely enough it turns out that rayfield the kind of the key figure in moore's utopia has a rather contemplative rather than practical preference”
More borrows from Aristotle the concept of virtue as a mean between two vices, which More integrates with his understanding of sin, arguing that extremes of human conduct cause trouble.
“moore takes that idea and says for the most part i mean and he keeps this consistent with his conception of sin and god's conception of right and wrong but for the most part aristotle is right in moore's view”
More borrows from Roman Stoicism the principle of cosmopolitan moral claims: the Stoic philosopher's cosmos is his polis, making him a citizen of the universe, and More's utopians similarly follow natural reason and natural law.
“more zootopia borrows from the tradition of roman stoicism and what's important here is that like stoicism and christianity moore's utopians are making cosmopolitan moral claims in other words for the stoic philosopher the cosmos is his polis that's what makes him cosmopolitan the world is his city well he's a citizen of the universe so are our utopians they follow natural reason and natural law”
Henry VIII had Thomas More write polemical books against Luther, then claimed authorship himself, including the 1521 'Defense of the Seven Sacraments,' because Henry was incapable of writing such theological work himself.
“when the lutheran reformation began when luther began writing criticisms of things like the catholic church or the catholic sacraments henry because he was still in a in the good graces of the pope and the pope was still in his good graces attempted to support catholicism and rather than writing books against luther himself because henry viii would have been largely incapable of such a thing he had thomas more write these books and then claimed the authorship himself so the book called 1521 called the defense of the seven sacraments which is directed against luther is in fact the product of thomas more it's not the product of henry viii”
In Utopia, death penalty is reserved only for those who have repeatedly offended and cannot be reformed, but instead the standard punishment is enslavement with the possibility of rehabilitation, redemption, and reintegration into society—a groping toward the idea of rehabilitation rooted in Christian forgiveness.
“there is always hope people are not sentenced to death except for those that have repeatedly offended there's nothing we can do with them moore dislikes the death penalty but he sees it as a regrettable necessity under certain circumstances instead he says we will punish them by making them slaves he calls them bondmen they are given a period of time in which they are forced to do onerous and menial and unpleasant tasks but the possibility is always there that if they behave themselves and if they do not transgress further and if they bear their punishment properly with the proper understanding of their chastisement they may be released from their bondage and reintegrated into society this is a groping towards the idea of rehabilitation the idea that people's sins can be repented of the idea of forgiveness which is central to christianity has been built right into this legal system”
In Utopia there is no noble lie—unlike Plato's Republic where rulers must lie to the ruled to maintain order—because all human beings are equal in the sight of God, and human equality is inextricably bound up with the history of Christianity.
“what is left out in moore's utopia is in some ways as important as what gets put in it is worth noting that in moore's utopia there is no noble lie those of you know plato's republic know that the rural rulers have to lie to the ruled in order to get them to do what they're supposed to do because the ruler there's a such great vast distinction between the gold class and the bronze class that they can only communicate by a noble liar a useful myth that doesn't happen in moore's utopia and here's the reason why all human beings are equal in the sight of god human equality as an important value in western political thought is closely inextricably bound up with the history of christianity it is impossible for there to be such a gulf between the rulers and the rules that we would need a special set of myths in a christian commonwealth”
More, though essentially just and generous, recognized as a practicing judge that his society's laws (such as capital punishment for theft) might be unjust, and concluded that society itself bears blame for the practical evils in its legal system, not just the individual transgressors.
“moore was an essentially just and generous and kind-hearted man but he was also a practical politician he had spent a great deal of time as a judge and a remarkably honest judge he was well known for his refusal to take bribes in an age when taking bribes was not unusual for a case and what moore did upon reflection is say to himself you know i'm not sure that the society that i am upholding is in fact a good society more for example at the time that more is writing the penalty for theft in england is death and more says i'm sure that i'm doing the right thing and convicting these people and incentivizing them to be hanged perhaps this is too hard uh punishment perhaps the fault lies not in these people that i am condemning perhaps the fault lies in our institutions and in our laws and in the way society is organized”
Everyone in More's Utopia must work—they do not work, they do not eat—and everyone has one or two trades; because everyone works, the workday can be reduced to six hours, making life kind and merciful while eliminating inequalities and oppression of More's own society where some labor 12-14 hours daily to support idle aristocracy.
“everyone has to work very important moore lives at a time when you have landed aristocracy there are people who sit on their butts and don't do anything and they have a whole crew of retainers behind them that do nothing to get into trouble and then there's a of course a large chunk of society which has to work six days a week 12 and 14 hours a day to support themselves and the rest of society in luxury moore wants to abolish that he says look you don't work you don't eat everyone in moore's utopia has a skill or a trade most of them have two and because everyone works he can they are able to reduce the workday to six hours a day”
More responds to criticism of medieval monasticism by arguing that devoting yourself to God through practical service to men is superior to devotion exclusively within a cloister with no practical effect on the world—piety is honor to God by service to men.
“by inventing this this category of people that are especially blessed and especially devoted towards divinity who do practically good things in this world he is answering the criticisms that have been leveled against medieval monasticism what moore is doing is saying devoting yourself to god is a fine thing giving up on worldly cares and on profane and day-to-day concerns that is an admirable thing but to do it exclusively within the domain of a cloister and to have no practical effect on the world around you is by itself not the best way of devoting yourself to god”
More's Utopia should be read as a book of nostalgia for the stasis of the Middle Ages and a Jeremiah criticizing the present, not as a forward-looking blueprint; More's backward-looking conservatism was insufficient to lead Western Europe beyond its fixed static view into the next stage of political and religious development.
“probably the best way to read morris utopia is as a book of nostalgia for the stasis of the middle ages and although it is in some respects also a jeremiah a criticism of the present state of society in fact his conservatism was insufficient to lead western europe into the next stage of political and religious development his conservatism was backward looking and his ideas were inadequate to the job of getting us beyond this fixed and static view of the world”
In Utopia, women can be priests because sex is not a barrier toward holiness, and the society has very few priests because it has priests of exceeding holiness, suggesting that true piety is rare and demands a higher standard than simply filling religious offices.
“moore makes a very telling remark somewhere in utopia where he says they have they have priests of exceeding holiness and therefore very few yes indeed they have very very holy priests and as a result of course they have very few of them and also women can be priests in moore's utopia the idea being that sex is not a barrier towards holiness”
More retreats from Christian asceticism by arguing that asceticism would make no sense if it did not serve a divine purpose, and no divine purpose is served by abolishing the simple and natural pleasures God has offered to human beings.
“moore himself practiced considerable mortification of the flesh he was quite an ascetic individual but he said look asceticism would make no sense if it did not serve some divine purpose and no divine purpose is served by abolishing the simple and natural pleasures which god has offered to human beings”
More perceives that western culture is undergoing fundamental changes—in geography, science, religion, and religious schism—that are leading the civilization away from a blessed political and moral state, and he seeks to bring society back to that state.
“what's important about thomas moore is that he can see that the changes that the western that western culture is undergoing uh changes in not just in their understanding of geography in the world but changes in science changes in religion and religious schism are all leading us away from a blessed political and moral state thomas more wants to bring us back to that”
These changes in Utopian society maintain old hierarchies (family, magistrates, prince) while giving up attachment to worldly things, making the happy life one closely connected to God without transgression rather than one with the most stuff.
“these changes in society we hold on to the old hierarchies but we give up our attachment to things of this world we give up on the idea that a happy life is one where you get the most stuff the happy life is the one in which you are most closely connected to god in which you do not transgress and do not engage in any evil towards your fellow man”
The lack of variety in Utopian architecture and dress reflects More's religious strictness about vanity—no lovely clothes because that is vanity, no house superior to others because one should be soul-proud, not house-proud—making Utopia appeal only to those from Christian ascetic tradition.
“this is a utopia that would only appeal to someone that comes out of that tradition of christian asceticism you know there's not much variety there's not much um entertainment value at least insofar as we might think of things like architecture or dress or paintings as being valuable independent of i don't know religious limitations moore was very strict about the religious limitations he would impose on this if you want lovely clothes that's an example of vanity religion will not allow that if you want a house that's better than other people's religion will not allow that as well do not be house proud be soul proud”
In Utopia, money is abolished; gold and silver are used for chamber pots to bring them into disrepute, and gemstones are given to babies as toys, assuming children naturally give up infantile attachments as they mature, so the utopians have no money and are beyond commerce.
“money is abolished instead gold and silver are used for chamber pots in order to bring them into disrepute and in addition to that gems gemstones are given to babies because they're shiny and pretty the idea being the children naturally give up the things of infancy as they get a little bit older and smarter the idea is that he wants to bring gold and silver and gems into distribute the utopians use no money at all they are beyond commerce”
In Utopia, all 30 families eat together in large communal meals creating community feeling while allowing elders to supervise youth; dinner seating alternates elder-younger to prevent young people from becoming boisterous or difficult, maintaining decorum while providing sustenance and freeing people from the burden of supporting their own nuclear family.
“all 30 families eat together in large communal meals it brings it creates community feeling but also allows elder people to supervise the younger when people sit down to dinner it's always an odd even mix of the elder and the younger and the elder and the younger that means that the young people never get out of hand at dinner they never become boisterous or difficult because they always have their elders on both sides of them there's no place to go so decorum is maintained the food is wonderful it saves a great deal of time and people have the burden of oppression lifted from them in many respects they don't have to take care of their own little nuclear family whether they can or not everyone gets fed”
The utopians have recently adopted Christianity but had previously worked out deistical or natural religion on their own, developing the idea of a creator and principles of natural religion from Greco-Roman antiquity, then rapidly accepting Christianity once exposed to it because their uncorrupted institutions and laws made them receptive.
“in religion beyond their their foreign policy their religion is quite interesting here's they have brought christianity in recently because they hadn't had access to it prior to that but they had managed to work out what we might call deistical or natural religion on their own they had an idea of a creator they had worked out certain of the ideas of natural religion that we saw in the in the tradition of greco-roman antiquity but they had been arrested at that phase of development until christianity comes in once christianity comes in it begins to make very quick and very powerful inroads”
In Utopia, the magistrates (phylarchs and tranibors) are remarkable for their intelligence, honesty, and love of knowledge (they spend almost all their time thinking, reading, and studying), and they are elected rather than hereditary, which implicitly criticizes hereditary monarchy by suggesting that if people had a choice, they would likely vote for someone other than Henry VIII.
“here's the key idea these magistrates are remarkable first of all for their intelligence uh the utopians love knowledge they spend almost all their time thinking and reading and studying this is quite a utopian society so the philox are very honest they're remarkable for their honesty and for their intelligence and in addition to that we assume that they will choose virtuous princes so they will not get us involved in foreign escapades very much different from the hereditary monarchy works for think about the implicit criticism there who would vote for henry viii if you had a choice you would likely vote for somebody else so what he's implicitly saying there is a hereditary monarchy contains many evils i work for one of them i do not lose sight of that”
More intends Utopia as a yardstick to measure real political orders by, not as a blueprint for implementation—much like Plato intended the Republic to be used as a political measuring standard
“like plato's republic a moore's utopia is intended as a sort of yardstick we may not find anything in this world that's perfectly one yard long but the yardstick will allow us to figure out how long an individual thing that we find in the world is plato wants us to use his republic as a kind of political yardstick that we measure the various real political orders by and that we could find in what respect they are deficient well thomas more intends utopia to be used in quite the same way”
The Jerusalem tradition (Christianity) is the dominant majority partner in More's Utopia while the Athens tradition (Greek philosophy) is the junior partner, with the most important departure being the concept of sin—which Plato and Aristotle do not discuss
“it turns out that much has been borrowed from the tradition of athens in utopia and still the athenian tradition the tradition of greek philosophy is the junior partner in utopia in fact the dominant majority partner is the tradition of intellectual and spiritual life that comes from jerusalem and there are a number of departures from the athenian tradition that we see in this tradition from jerusalem the first and most obvious is the idea of sin plato aristotle don't talk much about sin it's not within the vocabulary of moral discourse”
Raphael illustrates his argument by noting that capital punishment for theft is unjust and excessive, causing murderers because criminals have nothing to lose; but the real cause of theft is not the poor but the corrupt organization of society with its gold, silver, greed and luxury
“he says for example the case of theft being a capital crime rafil says look capital punishment for theft is far too great a sentence in fact it causes people to commit murders they wouldn't commit because they have nothing to lose but in addition to that it's simply unjust and unkind and lacking in mercy he says the problem with your society lies not on the fact that you have theft but lies in the fact that you have gold and silver and you have greed and luxury and that's what causes theft the cause of theft is the improper organization of society at least for most of the cases”
In Utopia, markets have no sales; instead, large storehouses provide whatever goods anyone needs in whatever quantity without payment, because abundance eliminates hoarding and greed—everyone brings home what they need knowing more will be available next week.
“the point is that their markets nothing gets sold they're large storehouses and everybody or every male head of household comes every day or every week whenever you need supplies and is given whatever he wants in whatever quantity he wants because no one hoards anything because there'll be plenty more there when you go back next week there's no need for people to be covetous there is no need for greed they don't have to pay anything for it just bring home what you need”
In Utopia there are no lawyers because any law worth having is one that everybody understands, and lawyers only obfuscate and twist laws; instead, magistrates are remarkable for probity and honesty and manage to pick out the truth.
“one of the great contributions that moore makes to the traditions of western political thought is the idea that maybe society shares some of the blame for the practical evils that we find in our system of laws in courts and more wants to try and solve some of these problems one way he intends to solve these problems is in utopia there are no lawyers and i think you may be right about that yes no lawyers are allowed in utopia it's not at all surprising he said any law worth having is one that everybody understands and everybody understands it there's really no point in having some lawyer mess around with it and twisted look come and speak for yourself the magistrates are remarkable for the probity and honesty”
Utopia is essentially a co-educational monastery with a strict, religious life carefully kept within limited rules but not driving people toward complete otherworldliness or extreme asceticism, with one foot in the Middle Ages and one in the Renaissance.
“what we get in utopia is if you can stop and think about it in some ways a giant co-educational monastery it is a very strict but and very religious sort of a life that is carefully kept within limited rules and yet these rules do not completely drive people towards other worldliness do not completely drive people towards asceticism moore in some ways has one foot in the middle ages and one foot in the renaissance and in some ways he's straddling the line between the two”
The Utopians do not sign treaties because they believe if a people are honest and peaceful they wouldn't need treaties, while if they're dishonest and corrupt they'll break them anyway—so treaties are pointless and they instead rely on their reputation for honest non-invasion
“this is not the same thing as a country with which they have a treaty the utopians do not sign treaties because they do not trust them they said if you're going to be honest and peaceful you wouldn't bother write a treaty up at all on the other hand if you were being duplicitous and dishonest and corrupt then you write up a treaty and break it so what's the point of writing up treaties we just don't invade people get used to it”
Before the six-hour workday, Utopians attend lectures every morning starting at five o'clock; learning is valued, those inclined toward learning become magistrates and tribal officers, and ambassadors and priests are drawn from the scholarly class
“prior to this six-hour workday the utopians like to go to lectures every morning they get up at five i believe and they sit and listen to their lectures would that i had such undergraduates but no it doesn't turn out that way the utopians love it those that aren't inclined towards learning do a little extra work people approve of that those who may become eminent in learning are by common consent turned into file arcs and tranobors and the magistrates of the society their ambassadors are drawn from the scholarly class”
Thomas More was a scholar, practical politician, and martyr who was killed by Henry VIII over political and religious disputes.
“thomas more is one of the most attractive figures of the renaissance he was a scholar he was a practical politician and statesman and he was also a martyr who was killed by henry viii on account of certain political and religious disputes”
Utopia is one of the great works in the western tradition of political thought that describes an ideal society from the perspective of a believing Christian during the Renaissance.
“he authored utopia which is one of the great works in the tradition of western political thought it narrates or describes what an ideal society would be like from the perspective of a believing christian at the time of the renaissance”