Sam Harris on How Populism and Inequality Threaten Open Societies (Making Sense #423)
What this covers
Harris conducts a wide-ranging conversation on threats to open societies and the conditions that allow populism to flourish. The episode, part of his "More From Sam" series, weaves together discussion of current events and audience questions to examine how liberal democracies face hollowing from within. The central focus is not on democracy alone but on the open society as a system of error correction—one sustained by free speech and pluralistic institutions that become paradoxically vulnerable to those who exploit tolerance itself. Harris traces how a collapsed media landscape rewards figures with no enforceable standards of integrity, how crony capitalism discredits the market system, and how these failures fuel demand for radical alternatives.
The conversation spans several distinct territories. On populism, Harris characterizes it as fundamentally an act of elite rejection that inherently abandons the standards those elites imperfectly maintained. On media, he argues that independent personalities operating without institutional reputation or coherence can lie and pivot without consequence—likening them to bullshitters wielding iPhones. On capitalism, he contends that its poor standing stems from a corruption layer of oligarchy and insider dealing atop an otherwise sound system, not from capitalism itself. He distinguishes sharply between tolerating despicable speech and tolerating illegal conduct, arguing the former must be protected while the latter prosecuted. The episode also addresses wealth inequality, immigration vetting, institutional credibility, and the persistence of jihadist recruitment—areas where Harris stakes out positions he describes as responding to real problems but often disagreeing with the proposed remedies from the left and right alike.
Harris argues that open societies and capitalism are the best systems available but are being hollowed out from within—by illiberal ideologies exploiting tolerance, by a populist media ecosystem that abandons standards of integrity, and by crony corruption that discredits capitalism and fuels radical alternatives.
- Open societies survive by enabling error correction through free speech and pluralism, which makes them vulnerable to those who weaponize tolerance
- The collapse of media gatekeepers rewards charismatic 'bullshitters' with no burden of coherence or integrity
- Capitalism's bad reputation comes from a layer of crony corruption on top of it, not capitalism itself, which gives rise to Mamdani-style socialist responses
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The 'open society' framing is more important to defend than 'democracy' because an open society is one whose governmental and non-governmental institutions allow for error correction—made possible by enshrining free speech and pluralistic tolerance into law and norms—rather than mere majority rule.
“I prefer the the framing of open society more than democracy... popper's notion of an open society is is the the mo more important one to defend here and um it's it's a society in in which the institutions allow for error correction because... things like free speech and pluralistic tolerance are enshrined as into law and into norms.”
Populism is at its core a rejection of elites and elite institutions—an expression of resentment against gatekeepers—and therefore has built into its DNA an abdication of the standards and notions of responsibility those gatekeepers and institutions imperfectly embodied.
“populism is a few things, but at its core, it's a rejection of elites and elite institutions, right? It's... an expression of of resentment and and revulsion against the... gatekeepers. And so it almost has built into its DNA a um an abdication of the kinds of standards and and notions of responsibility that the those gatekeepers and institutions imperfectly embodied.”
An enduring paradox of democracy is that it extends rights and protections even to those who would use them to undermine it, seen both in Islamists who leverage free speech and open borders to advance illiberal aims and in elements on the right that manipulate procedural gray zones to concentrate power.
“one of the enduring paradoxes of democracy is that it extends rights and protections even to those who would use them to undermine it... Islamists who leverage free speech and open borders to advance illiberal aims and elements on the right that manipulate loopholes and procedural gray zones to violate ethical standards and concentrate power.”
We must err on the side of tolerating the expression of any ideas and should not kick people out for merely saying despicable things; but the moment they move beyond talk—planning an attack, physically obstructing campus life, keeping Jews out of buildings, or bullying and assaulting people—that conduct is illegal and should result in prosecution and expulsion.
“we have to heir on the side of tolerating the expression of any ideas... I don't think we should be kicking people out for saying despicable things. Uh but the moment they do more than merely talk about them, the moment they're planning to do something, the moment they're... physically obstructing life on a university campus... All of that's illegal... it should get you kicked out”
Independent media personalities like Tucker Carlson are effectively people wielding iPhones with impunity, lacking any reputation for professionalism or integrity to protect; because they don't feel the friction of personal integrity, they can lie, spin, and tack in any direction with no burden of coherence or of not being a hypocrite, since hypocrisy is not even an acknowledged fate when you have no principles.
“he has the principles of somebody just wielding an iPhone uh with impunity and with no reputation for for professionalism or integrity to protect... they don't feel the friction of personal integrity... they can just lie and spin and there's no burden of of not being a hypocrite... it's not a fate that is even acknowledged when you don't have any principles.”
The combination of unprecedented transparency with unprecedented misinformation has created a perfect storm of reputational damage for gatekeepers and experts: roughly half of the negative material about institutions is true, embarrassing, and worth correcting, while the other half is Alex Jones-style confabulation and lies—yet both halves now reside in most people's brains, especially right of center.
“we have a degree of transparency uh coupled with a degree of misinformation that is... has created a kind of perfect storm of of reputational damage for the the gatekeepers... half of the stuff is true and embarrassing and worth correcting. The other half is... Alex Jones style... confabulation and lies. Uh, but both halves are in most people's brains, at least right of center”
Capitalism is the best system we have, but its bad name comes from a layer of corruption on top of it—oligarchic winner-take-all regressive taxation, crony capitalism, kleptocracy, and officials trading stocks on insider information and arranging favored deals for friends; the goal should be the best version of capitalism, which requires compassion and a commitment to the common good rather than malignantly selfish people running the government.
“capitalism is the best we've got... what we don't want to to add to capitalism is a um an oligarchic winner take all regressive tax code and... crony capitalism and corruption... we have something like a a kleptocracy... we have a layer of corruption on top of capitalism which is giving capitalism a bad name... that requires compassion. It requires a commitment to the common good.”
In defending against dangerous ideologies we must focus on dangerous ideas rather than specific classes of people, avoiding xenophobia and bigotry, even though it is tempting to notice that specific classes of people have more than their share of dangerous ideas.
“we can't tip over into xenophobia and bigotry. We have to focus on dangerous ideas rather than than specific classes of people... it's certainly tempting to notice that specific classes of people have more than their share of dangerous ideas”
Open societies are perpetually threatened by people who use the principles of tolerance to undermine tolerance, with one of the most glaring recent examples being a stealthy Islamist campaign attempting to smuggle theocracy into Western communities.
“the open societies are perpetually under threat by people who would use the principles of tolerance to undermine tolerance. And one of the most glaring examples of this in recent times is the kind of the stealth and none too stealthy Islamist campaigning everywhere which is basically trying to smuggle in theocracy into western communities”
Trump is an animal of the same kind as the freewheeling media bullshitters—there is no burden of coherence and no burden of paying attention to what really happened in the world or to the risks of spreading certain lies—so the result is entertainment in which we are entertaining ourselves toward the precipice.
“this is also also Trump is a an animal of this kind... There's no burden of coherence. There's no burden of... paying attention to what really happened in the world or... the risks of spreading certain lies... it's entertainment... and on some level we're entertaining ourselves toward the precipice.”
If everyone rejects the system and becomes an 'outdoor cat,' eventually there is nobody left in the building—meaning a society that universally rejects its institutions ends up with no functioning institutions and an every-man-for-themselves dynamic.
“if everyone is rejecting the system and everyone becomes outdoor cats at some point there's nobody left in the building.”
We have a real and growing problem with wealth inequality in this country—a position the speaker has argued for nearly two decades—and New York City is one of the most obvious loci of that inequality, which is what Mamdani is responding to.
“I have been arguing for a very long time... close to two decades that we have a real and growing problem with wealth inequality in this country. Uh and obviously Mamani is responding to that... it's hard to find a a locust of of wealth inequality more... obvious than than New York City.”
Proposals like state-owned grocery stores, getting rid of billionaires, and freezing rents in New York City are not serious or sane responses to wealth inequality—rent freezes in particular are known to be harmful to anyone familiar with what rent control does.
“the idea that that stateowned grocery stores is a sane response to that or that we're going to get rid of billionaires or what the other crazy Marxist things he's proposed... those aren't serious proposals... going to freeze rents in New York City. Is that does that sound like a a good plan to anyone who knows anything about what rent control does”
Rather than banning immigrants by nationality, the right approach is a vetting process—screening, interviews, online research, and references—that raises the probability of successfully catching jihadists and Islamists trying to immigrate, on the principle that just as we wouldn't import Nazis, we shouldn't be eager to import Islamists.
“we have to screen people. We have to we have to talk to people. We have to do online research about people... clearly there's some process that's possible whereby we could raise the the probability of um successfully catching jihadists and Islamists who are trying to to immigrate... just as we wouldn't want to import Nazis into our society, we should not be eager to import Islamists and jihadists”
There is a different burden of proof and procedure once someone has been admitted with a green card versus keeping them out in the first place—it is better to keep people out than to admit them and then figure out how to respond—but a sufficiently despicable green card holder can have their status rescinded and be removed, since a green card holder is not a citizen.
“it's it's different once someone has been admitted and been given a green card, right?... It's it's better to keep people out rather than let them in then figure out how to respond... if someone is sufficiently despicable, I think we should be able to resend their green card and and kick them out of the country... you're not a citizen if you have a green card.”
It is very easy to exaggerate how bad institutions like the New York Times, Harvard University, or the government actually are; much of the criticism leveled against them in recent years has itself been exaggerated, even though their failures and reputational damage are partly real.
“I think it's very easy to exaggerate how bad the the New York Times is or Harvard University is or the government is, right? I just think it's... I think a lot of that's been exaggerated.”
People's sense that capitalism isn't working for them is partly an optical illusion: they don't recognize that even the barely middle-class people in our society today live much better than the wealthiest people on earth did some years ago.
“people are also just confused. This is another optical illusion, right? I mean, people don't recognize that even the barely middle class people in our society today live much better than the wealthiest people on earth, you know, some some years ago.”
The left wing of every left-wing party has made common cause with Islamists—either by being deceived or for other reasons—a dynamic supercharged by the war in Gaza and by endemic anti-semitism on the left and in the Muslim community.
“the left wing of every leftwing party has been successfully gulled by this or has just you know not been actually deceived but just you know for other reasons decided to make common cause with with Islamists... this is get this has been supercharged by the war in Gaza of late and the the nent... anti-semitism uh on the left and uh in the Muslim community.”
The corruption layer on top of capitalism, far from being addressed, is moving in the opposite direction—especially with the latest term where the president offers his friends deals and engages in insider stock trading—which is precisely what gives rise to a likable, frenzy-whipping figure like Mamdani who offers people genuine relief.
“if anything it's moving in the opposite direction especially with this latest term and so it does give rise to a mom donny type who is incredibly likable... he's really whipping everyone into a frenzy and you look at the faces and they they really seem like there's some relief out there”
Homegrown jihadism is an easy-to-forget problem that has never gone away; the moment another terrorist attack of any scale occurs, society will suddenly realize the problem persists—and while it is a bigger problem in Western Europe, it remains a problem in America too.
“we have a problem with with potentially homegrown jihadists... The moment we have another terrorist attack in the society of any scale, all of a sudden we're going to realize this problem never went away. Uh it's a bigger problem in Western Europe than it is in America, but it's a it's a problem here too.”
Trump's second administration is being increasingly populated by loyalists, cranks, loons, grifters, and incompetents running the Justice Department, FBI, and HHS; even if one accepted that all prior experts had to be purged for failures on COVID or foreign policy, one would still want sober experts rather than grifting lunatics who carry dollar signs in their self-branded logos and came from the tabloids.
“in in Trump's second administration, they're being increasingly populated by loyalists and cranks and loons and grifters and incompetence... Even if you think literally everyone in in the Biden administration was corrupt and incompetent and you need a new crop of people, you still want sober experts who are not grifting lunatics”
As camera technology continuously improves, the resolution of UFO sightings remains stuck at roughly one megapixel—always looking like a frisbee covered in tin foil—which undermines the credibility of extraterrestrial claims.
“while they've what's that line that they say while the cameras continue to improve, uh the sightings are always still at one megapixel. It's always a you know, looks like a Frisbee colored with covered with tin foil thrown in the air.”
The mundane explanation that UFO sightings near the Pentagon were a hazing ritual among employees that went on for decades is easier to accept than the hypothesis that we are being visited by extraterrestrials.
“The Pentagon sound like it was a hazing ritual among among Pentagon employees... But it's an it's an easier explanation that than that we're actually being visited by extraterrestrials”
The DOJ and FBI concluding Epstein had no client list directly contradicts Pam Bondi's earlier claim that she had the list on her desk, meaning someone is lying because both claims cannot be true.
“Pam Bondi said she had the list on her desk, I think, and and now she says there is no list... there's just no way that both these claims can be true.”