Adam Gopnik with Malcolm Gladwell: On the Mystery of Mastery

The pleasure of mastery and achievement at which one is no good and mediocre provides the same internal sense of flow as mastery in domains of excellence.

“the accomplishments that we master or attempt to master at which we're no good give us the same sense of you know, little steps turning into a seamless sequence the sense of the flow which is the key to happiness”

Sourdough starters, called 'mothers' conventionally, retain microbes from the hands of the baker for long after the baker's death, making schmutz (the accumulated microbial matter) what remains of us more than marble monuments or written verses—it is what lives after us.

“the microbes on your mother's hands or on the hands of any baker will remain in the starter long after you've lost them and long after they've gone...schmutz is the thing that lives after us more than marble monuments or rhymes”

Appreciating expert performance deeply requires having attempted to perform the same craft oneself (even poorly); people with no craft experience cannot genuinely appreciate expertise.

“It is only through pursuing something not badly. It's not You weren't bad at these things, but inexpertly, yes, that you come to a full appreciation of the expert...The person who goes up to the magician and says, 'I know how you did that.' is someone who doesn't try to be a mediocre They don't They haven't If they were a mediocre magician, they would know better that they would be in awe.”

The bullet catch metaphor represents the 'existential leap' that all artistry and mastery require: after all preparation, one must stand vulnerable with 'mouth open' and accept the risk; this is the irreducible human commitment that technique cannot eliminate.

“Because we all instantly know what that means, right? That after all the preparation you do when writing or talking or anything else, after all the ways in which you make sure that you will not be killed by the bullet, at some point you have to stand there with your mouth open and the cup in it while somebody points a rifle at you. And that for me is, you know, the existential leap that we all have to make in artistry, mastery, whatever we choose to call it.”

At age 40, Gopnik discovered that pursuing only things at which he was already good was a 'trap,' leading him to deliberately learn skills in which he would remain mediocre.

“I only pursued things that I was good at. And I realized when I hit 40 that that was a trap...That is such a better model than every other...If you want to play lacrosse at Johns Hopkins, it's impossible...At Bard, you can play lacrosse at Bard.”

Being in touch with the foundation of dissatisfaction and continuous improvement (through pursuing things one does poorly) is 'hugely analgesic' and psychologically therapeutic.

“being in touch with the foundation of that, with things that we do poorly, but we're getting better at, is is hugely analgesic.”

Magic represents a model of art in which practitioners possess profound technique they keep secret, have a primary impulse to entertain rather than impress or intimidate, and use their skills for delight rather than demonstration of superiority.

“it seemed like such a model of art in a of a very modest kind...the idea that you would have a profound technique that you kept to yourself, the idea that your primary impulse was to entertain rather than to uh impress or to um intimidate...you would have all of these skills, but you would use them for the purposes of delight”

Magicians and cooks are the people Gopnik most enjoys spending time with because both are grounded in artisanal practice, are experts at something, tend to be temperamental with difficult lives, yet dedicate their existence to delight—which Gopnik finds noble and even saintly.

“The people I most have enjoyed hanging out with in life are magicians and cooks...They both There's an artisanal basis to everything they do...They are expert at doing something...they are tend to be very temperamental people who have very difficult lives. Nothing is harder than running a restaurant except running a magic show. And yet the whole purpose of their existence is to delight. And I find that I find there's something sort of noble and even saintly about that.”

Being cut off from access to amateur arts participation due to professionalization and meritocratic gatekeeping is 'a disaster' that impoverishes society.

“being cut off from that is is a disaster...knowing what it's like to be good at something teaches you what it's like to be good at something. But knowing what it's like to be bad at something teaches you what it's like to be good at something as well.”

Gopnik observed the Bard lacrosse team practicing and recognized they were 'laughably inept' but that this was positive because it meant anyone who wanted to play lacrosse at Bard could do so, contrasting with elite schools where access is restricted to naturally gifted athletes.

“I saw the Bard lacrosse team practice. And I observed them and they observed that they were the most most laughably inept lacrosse team I'd ever seen...that means that anyone who wants to play lacrosse at Bard can play lacrosse at Bard. And that is such a better model than every other lacrosse team...If you want to play lacrosse at Johns Hopkins, it's impossible.”

The best runners are never satisfied with their performance and constantly try to improve, just as writers always believe their work could be better—this underlying dissatisfaction is common to all practitioners across ability levels.

“the things that's true about the best runners in that meet are never satisfied with their performance, right? They never go away thinking, 'Oh, I really did it.' You can always do better. And we feel that way about the about the work we do, right? Always do better, never satisfied with it.”

We make ourselves partly in the shadow of our father's accomplishments, but also by bending away from the shadow into our own sunshine.

“I think we all make ourselves a little bit in the shadow of our father's accomplishments, but also by bending away from the shadow into our own sunshine.”

Winnipeg has the secret sauce of being a place where a large Jewish community intermingled with a large non-Jewish community (unlike most places in Canada), and also contains the intellectual center of Mennonite life in Canada alongside huge Ukrainian and Icelandic communities.

“it's that it's the one place in Canada where there's a very large Jewish community which intermingled with a very large non-Jewish community...It was the presence of a Jewish community that wasn't completely hived off onto itself that I think is the secret sauce of the Winnipeg...It's the intellectual center of Mennonite life in Canada as well. So, it's this strange mixture of this kind of hardy Eastern European Jewish ethic, this tons of like Ukrainians, and then all these Mennonites kind of sturdily moving along. And a huge Icelandic community.”

Gopnik spent five intensely happy and productive years in Paris writing pieces that became 'Paris to the Moon' before leaving deliberately because he feared the natural, affectionate journalism would become a shtick if he remained.

“I was had the five most amazingly happy and productive years of my life in Paris when I was writing the pieces that eventually became Paris the Moon...I feared it was to be honest, I knew it was good, and it was good, and I feared it would become a shtick.”

Martha and Gopnik chose a 'full life' in New York over a 'beautiful existence' in Paris—prioritizing breadth of experience and connection over aesthetic perfection.

“Martha said um uh we have a beautiful existence in Paris, but not a full life and in New York, we have a full life, but not a beautiful existence. So, we chose the full life over the the beautiful existence.”

The best writing happens in the moment when 'an emotion and an idea hum together'—neither pure emotion (which feels amateurish) nor pure ideas (which feel arid).

“the thing I love most is exactly the moments in that act when you get an emotion and an and an idea humming together...when it's just ideas, it feels arid to me. And when it's just emotions, it feels amateurish to me.”

Pluralism (in liberal society) is fundamentally about permitting diverse levels of ability to participate in the same endeavor—experts and mediocre practitioners practicing together in non-hierarchical contexts.

“There is something indescribably beautiful about that. It's the essence of pluralism. That's what we mean by living in a pluralist society is that that's avail That's that that's available to us.”

Community theater is civilization's living beating heart and the foundation of liberal society, not its whipping boy—as Frederick Law Olmsted argued, liberal civilization depends on community theater, glee clubs, and amateur opera societies.

“Community theater is the whipping boy of every pretentious intellectual...Civilization is community theater...Frederick Law Olmsted, the great designer of Central Park and one of the great American political thinkers, said that the thing that the the common place civilization of a liberal society depended on community theater...glee clubs...amateur opera societies. That's the living beating heart of a liberal society are those things.”

Understanding what it's like to be good at something through natural talent teaches you excellence, but understanding what it's like to be bad at something teaches you excellence through a different pathway.

“knowing what it's like to be good at something teaches you what it's like to be good at something. But knowing what it's like to be bad at something teaches you what it's like to be good at something as well.”

The 'invisible trick' in Gopnik's magic chapter involves introducing a boy as an apprentice magician at the beginning without naming him until the final paragraph, when the reader realizes the boy is Luke (Gopnik's son), mirroring the magic technique of 'twisting the aces' (showing a card, flipping it, and only then revealing it's an ace).

“there's something about that chapter that no one has ever caught, that I worked harder to achieve, an invisible trick. There's a boy who's introduced at the beginning who's the apprentice to the magician. So, it's Luke. It's It's Luke, but he's not named that way. And it's only at the end...he's not named that way...it's only at the end and he's doing a trick called twisting the aces where the card is introduced and then turned over and only when you turn it over do you know it's an ace. And it's never explained that the boy in the story is my son”

David Blaine was performing a true bullet catch (not a gaff) with extremely small caliber, low-velocity rifle, and laser-guided technology, with Gopnik initially believing there must be a trick to catching the bullet until Luke clarified that 'the trick to the bullet catch is catching the bullet'—meaning that after all technical preparation, one must still perform the actual feat.

“David was going to do a true bullet catch...Luke explained to me David was going to do...Very strong titanium cup...very low uh velocity rifle and a very small caliber bullet and it's all laser guided...I said, 'Oh, really? So, there's no trick to the bullet catch?' And he said, 'Oh, no, Dad, there's a trick to the bullet catch. The trick to the bullet catch is catching the bullet.'”

Writing that approaches its subject with affection and seeks to illuminate rather than argue produces prose that can sustain throughout a career, whereas writing based on confrontation (like boxing, a pugilistic approach) experiences a post-50 creative decline.

“you can't sustain that kind of confrontation...if you approach writing as an exercise in finding what it is to love about your subject, you can write forever”

No form known to humanity achieves the intimate entanglement of ideas and emotions as naturally as songwriting, making a single good song equivalent to 'purchase on immortality.'

“there's no form in which ideas and emotions come into such intimate entanglement as in a song...anybody who can write one good song, one memorable song has got a little bit of purchase on immortality”

Academic training emphasizes argumentative thinking structured through negation and correction ('but, on the other hand'), while improvisational and descriptive writing emphasizes affirmative connection ('yes, and').

“the way you're trained and taught to think and write is argumentative, through buts...Somebody says something, and you controvert it. You say, 'But, on the other hand, that's not entirely true'...Improv is and Yes, and”

A writer's best engagement with their subject occurs when they meet someone they care about and then construct elaborate theories to justify their affection for that character, rather than starting with a theory and finding a subject to dress it up.

“You do the opposite. Essentially, all of your writing is about you meet someone, you fall in love with them, and then you come up with some elaborate theory to justify your affection for your character.”

Gopnik's real journalism pieces (as opposed to critical pieces) never present him at odds with the subject; even when ostensible conflict exists, he goes to great pains to suggest he is not really at odds with the subject.

“all the pieces of of some journalism that are not the higher homework, right...You're all You You You always like the subject...You're never at odds with the subject. And even when you are at odds with the subject, you go to great pains to suggest you're not really at odds with the subject.”

Schulberg's memoir left out all the good bits that appeared in an oral history he gave later, including his experience in WWII as part of a select group (with John Ford and others) racing through occupied Germany to find Nazi propaganda films before they were destroyed.

“someone just interviewed about his life you realize he left out all the good bits in his memoir...he has this extraordinary experience in the Second World War where he's First of all he's part of this little select group that was...the Nazis made these films of the most unspeakable of their acts...after the war there was a race to find the film...He was racing around occupied Germany not occupied post just post collapse Germany in a in a Jeep with like three other guys among them he was in a group with um with the director Ford...John Ford”

Magicians—unlike other skilled practitioners like trauma surgeons—engage in rapturous, intellectually intense shop talk constrained to other magicians, creating a high degree of intellectual passion about their craft that cannot be shared with laypeople.

“Magicians have the most beautiful and rapturous shop talk of anyone cuz they can only talk about it to other magicians. They have a high level of trauma surgeon-like technique, but they can't tell you or me about it. They can only talk about it to other magicians. So, there's an intensity, an intellectual intensity to what they do.”

George Plimpton's approach to participatory journalism centered on the comedy of his incapacity—attempting something, learning, and ultimately failing—whereas Gopnik's approach attempts two jokes: attempting something and entering into the world of people who do it competently.

“Plimpton's comedy came out of his uh uh incapacity to do it. You know, if Plimpton was making a was had He was a wonderful writer, but he had kind of one joke to tell, right? I attempt to do this thing. I learn a lot, and then I fail at it. And I wanted to tell two jokes. I attempt to do this thing, and I um enter into the world of the people who do it.”

Hemingway and Mailer treat boxing as a parallel to writing (writing is like boxing), but this comparison fails because writers constantly revise and seek approval, whereas boxers don't stand in the ring asking their opponent which punch was better.

“Mailer and Hemingway both present boxing as a parallel to writing. It's like writing. Being a writer is like being a boxer. And as I say in there, if that were true, then every boxer would be standing in the ring looking for his spouse or partner saying, 'Did you see the right I threw? Did you see the right I threw?...Which one do you like more?'...That would be 50 rounds cuz writers are constantly revising”

There is a passionate sub-industry of Broadway musical enthusiasts who love and trade 'cut songs'—particularly Sondheim's discarded material, which they esteem more highly than his published songs.

“you get a whole kind of sub-industry of passionate um appreciators of cut songs...people who are really love the Broadway musical, what they really love are cut songs. They trade cut songs, they have bootleg recordings of cut songs, and the people who really love Stephen Sondheim love his cut songs much more than they love his real songs.”

People who are neglected or have a 'chip on their shoulder' become more interesting because they have a case to make, whereas successful politicians who are already presumed interesting become boring because they merely recite bromides without the intensity of obsession.

“a condition of their interesting of interestingness in their profession is the chip on the shoulder. In other words, you kind of need to be neglected to be interesting...that's why politicians are so boring, successful politicians. They just recite bromides, right? Because everyone assumes that they're that they're interesting. They don't have a case to make. They don't have the intensity of obsession, which is what makes writing which is what is interesting to hear.”

There is an interaction effect in interviews where sophisticated interviewers elicit sophisticated responses from subjects—subjects do not create the intellectualism independently but respond to the intellectual engagement of the questioner, just as jazz musicians confronted with serious engagement speak seriously.

“there's an interaction between the writer and the subject. And our subjects very much often become like the writers, not because we make them, not because we fabricate them, but just because it the the it's exactly the first principle of magic...the great magicians...sense that my level of of empathy was based on a certain degree of intellect responded to that cuz that's their genius, the great magicians, is being able to enter into other people's minds”

At the Armory's indoor track all-comers meets, runners self-seed by ability into 11 heats for the 3000m, creating a visible gradient from elite runners ('gazelles') to mediocre participants, yet all are welcomed as equals in a shared competitive enterprise.

“At the Armory uptown, they have an indoor track...all-comers meets. Anyone can show up...the featured race...was the 3,000 m. And if I If memory serves, there were 11 heats...first heat is the really really really good...they're like gazelles...by the time I got on we were, you know”

Gopnik initially wanted to be both a songwriter and a New Yorker writer, believing he could be 'Stephen Sondheim and John Updike simultaneously,' but this proved impossible.

“when Martha and I came to New York on a bus from Canada like in a bad '40s movie, we I wanted to be a songwriter. That was my primary ambition...I wanted to be a songwriter and a writer for the New Yorker. I figured I could do both. I could be Stephen Sondheim and John Updike simultaneously. That turned out not to be the case.”

Gopnik's father is the most gently competent person Gopnik has met, was driving since age 14, and would drive 19 hours from rural Ontario to Baltimore to visit a grandchild without hesitation, representing a level of quiet competence in life tasks that Gopnik made himself notably incompetent in as a reaction.

“my father is the most gently competent human being you will meet...he had been driving since he was 14, and he was the sort of person who thought nothing, you know, he has six kids and 20 grandchildren, of driving to a grandchild in Baltimore from rural Ontario where they live for 19 hours”

Gopnik has a complicated relationship with his mother rooted in the fact that they are very much alike—both driven people—and the best way to connect with her has always been through shared activity rather than conversation.

“I have a complicated relationship with her...we're very much alike and she's a driven person as am I...trying to and I thought in this book and in life generally that she the best way I could connect with her was through a shared activity. It's always been the only the best way to connect with her”

The original Tannens magic store near Bryant Park (now long gone, replaced by two rooms on the fifth floor of 34th Street) was a three-story emporium of magic wares, demonstrations, and a great wall displaying pictures of all the great magicians—representing one of the great losses in imaginary New York.

“there was a store near where the Verizon building is...the original Tannens magic...this great emporium of magic down near Bryant Park, now long gone...like three stories of magic wares and magic demonstrations and this great wall that had the pictures of all the great magicians on it. And it's one of the great losses, at least in my imaginary New York”

Gopnik's ultimate goal and primary source of ambition is 'shaping sentences' through essays (his most loved form) and songwriting, which are fundamentally the same enterprise of 'organizing language in ways that express emotion.'

“what what I'm good at or what I believe myself to be good at is shaping sentences...the form I love most in the world is the essay...writing lyrics or writing a show is uh it's the same enterprise, right? It's organizing language in ways that express emotion.”

Gopnik was drawn into magic through his son Luke's obsessive interest, which gave Luke far more meaning, accomplishment, and significance than anything he was studying at school.

“my son Luke discovered magic and found that he gave him far more meaning, accomplishments, significance than anything he was studying at school. So, I was drawn into it through through Luke's obsessive interest in magic.”

Writer names significantly affect their reception and career trajectory—an ugly, non-euphonious name can harm a writer's reputation independent of their talent, just as J.D. Salinger's name carried inherent prestige compared to names like Elkanah Settle or Gopnik.

“one of my pet theories is that writers are very dependent on their names, right? There's a moment there was a Dr. Johnson said someplace that there was a poet laureate in England named Elkanah Settle, and no one could ever believe that he could write a good poem with a name like Elkanah Settle. And I have struggled with this my whole life cuz Gopnik has got to be the single ugliest, most non-euphonious name there is. And Bud Schulberg, right? It sounds like a guy who runs a store, right? Whereas, you know, J.D. Salinger is clearly a writer of note.”

Gopnik's urge to teach and explicate comes from his family background (both parents and all siblings are professors), driving him toward generalization and theory-production in a way that was absent from Plimpton, who came from an aristocratic WASP background where teaching and explication were viewed as somewhat vulgar.

“I can't I can't not be my mother's son in that way. My mother was a professor, father was a professor, all of my brothers and sisters are professors...the urge to teach, to explicate, is very strong. It was not at all in, you know, Plimpton was an aristocratic wasp. And for him, teaching and explicating, I think, was a little vulgar.”

Gopnik practiced debate as a teenager but not extensively, and lost recently in the month debates in Toronto by 'the largest margin in the history of the month debates,' which was 'deeply humiliating,' prompting him to attend debate classes in Brooklyn with high school students.

“I participated in this debate in Toronto, the month debates...lost by by the largest margin in the history of the month debates. And it was so it was like deeply I mean humiliating...I decided um to go to debate school in Brooklyn with these high school students.”

In family dynamics, Gopnik occupies a gendered seat typically assigned to women, passing out cookies and managing children while Martha does the driving—a role reversal he occupied for decades before learning to drive in his 50s alongside his son Luke.

“my wife Martha did all the driving in our family, and I was the one in the as my daughter Olivia, who's here someplace I would point out, the gendered seat, which we usually assign to women in our culture where I'm the one passing out the cookies and saying, 'Hey kids, kids, you got to be quiet. Mom's trying to find the exit now.'”

Jamie Swiss is a gifted and irascible magician who is a true intellectual of the magic world, an exacting and demanding teacher, and a contentious person who refuses to allow magic to be minimized or condescended to.

“Jamie Swiss is a dear friend...Jamie is the most gifted and most irascible magician there's ever been. He's he's a true intellectual of the magic world, and he is a truly contentious person...a magnificent slight of hand man, a great teacher...the most exacting, demanding, and rewarding, replenishing teacher you could possibly have”

David Copperfield is like The Guess Who in music—commercially very successful but not taken seriously by peers who view his illusions as too broad, creating a perpetual chip on his shoulder as a figure in his field.

“David Copperfield is in that strange position, right? Where he's by far the most commercially successful of all the magicians of his generation, but other magicians tend not to take him too seriously...It's like...The Guess Who in music. Remember the band The Guess Who?...They had one hit after another but nobody ever took them seriously for a moment, right? And they had that perpetual chip on the shoulder. David Copperfield is sort of the Guess Who”

Winnipeg represents a neglected city whose disdain from the rest of Canada spurs Winnipegians to great achievement, producing an unusually long list of Canadian success stories despite broader Canadian disdain.

“the the fact that the rest of Canada considers Winnipeg with a great deal of disdain spurs Winnipegians to great achievement...the number...of great Canadian success stories that have come out of Winnipeg is as long as my arm”

David Copperfield maintains a giant warehouse in Las Vegas filled with an extraordinary collection of magic artifacts and rare books, showing it only to select people he believes will truly appreciate and relish the collection.

“he has this giant warehouse full of the most extraordinary collection of magic relics...he only shows it to a select few. Yes, he only shows it to people he thinks will relish it and and appreciate it”

Gopnik's heroes in songwriting are Lorenz Hart and Richard Rodgers, and he is currently collaborating with composer Andrew Lippa on another musical show.

“my ultimate heroes, uh Hart, Lorenz Hart, uh took part in that field...and I'm a hard at work right now on another show with a wonderful composer named Andrew Lippa”

Gopnik collaborated with composer David Shire to write a musical called 'Our Table' with approximately 60 songs, following Broadway tradition of writing 60 songs and discarding 40 (trunk songs), with their show having a fine though ultimately unsuccessful run in New Haven that never transferred to New York.

“a wonderful uh composer David Shire approached me about writing a musical with him...we wrote a show called Our Table which you can find on Spotify. And we wrote some 60 songs together...our show had a had a fine though uh run in New Haven that never transferred to New York.”

Gopnik's mother is a small woman who was a distinguished professor of linguistics and instrumental in discovering FOXP2, the first gene for grammar, and also designs avant-garde jewelry while maintaining constant activity.

“my mother is a small uh woman who um is, among other things, was a professor of linguistics, very distinguished um scientist, um instrumental in discovering the first uh gene for grammar, HO FXNP...she also designs jewelry, and she wears uh somewhat eccentric clothing”

Luke joined the family business as a professor by pursuing a PhD in philosophy at the University of Texas, following his parents and grandparents into academia after his earlier 'adventures' with magic and music.

“Luca, uh my wonderful son who is now I um doing his PhD in philosophy at the University of Texas. After all of his adventures magic and music, he ends ended as a philosopher. Um is He rejoined the family business. He rejoined That's my mother said.”

Gopnik lives in fear of embarrassment but finds that his egotism/ambition overrides that fear, allowing him to pursue risky, ambitious projects despite their potential for public failure.

“You have no fear of embarrassment. I live in total fear of embarrassment, but my I suppose when it comes to the contest between my egotism and my embarrassment, my egotism wins somehow.”