“The End of Everything,” with Victor Davis Hanson | Uncommon Knowledge
What this covers
Recorded on April 9, 2024.
Classicist Victor Davis Hanson is the Martin and Illie Anderson Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution and the author of hundreds of articles, book reviews, and newspaper editorials on Greek, agrarian, and military history and essays on contemporary culture. He has written or edited twenty-four books, the latest of which is The End of Everything: How Wars Descend into Annihilation. The book—and this conversation—charts how and why some societies choose to utterly destroy their foes and warns that similar wars of obliteration are possible in our time. Hanson provides a warning to current societies not to repeat the mistakes of the past.
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Hanson argues that civilizations can be completely annihilated in single catastrophic events when attackers possess both the capability and intent to destroy, and that modern societies wrongly assume such annihilation is impossible today despite explicit contemporary threats.
- Historical case studies (Thebes, Carthage, Constantinople, Aztecs) demonstrate repeating patterns where civilizations were not merely defeated but completely obliterated
- Modern threats to Greece, Israel, Kurds, Armenians, Ukraine, Taiwan are explicitly existential and deserve serious consideration rather than dismissal as hyperbole
- The belief that advanced postmodern societies are immune to annihilation represents dangerous historical amnesia
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Entire civilizations can die in a single day, not through natural disaster but through deliberate military annihilation by attackers with both capability and intent to destroy
“It may not happen often, but sometimes, sometimes, entire civilizations die in a single day.”
The Roman trauma from Hannibal was so severe that 'Hannibal ad portas' ('Hannibal at the gates') became a phrase used to scare children, and Romans remained scared of Carthage for generations
“It was always Hannibal ad Portis. They scared little kids with, 'Hannibals at the gates.' And they were traumatized.”
After paying off the indemnity early, Carthage became prosperous again with 500,000 to 600,000 people, booming economy, lush countryside, and one of the ancient world's great ports, rivaling Rome despite professing peaceful intentions and having no bellicosity
“They paid the identity off early... the city had somewhat 500,000 to 600,000 people in it. It was booming. It was lush. The countryside was lush... yet they professed no bellicosity at all... it was the part of Carthage... Was starting to rival Rome again”
Neighboring Boeotian villages that resented Theban dominance joined Alexander after the city's destruction, and they hauled away marble columns and roof tiles to strip the ruins, demonstrating how local resentments facilitated destruction.
“some of the surrounding Vyoshan villages, of course, don't like them so they join Alexander and they haul off the marble columns, they haul off the roof tiles, they level it.”
Scipio systematically killed every person in Carthage over a two-week period; the descriptions are horrific—bodies accumulated so densely that the Roman army had to scrape them off the ground, comparable to block-by-block fighting in modern cities like Gaza, Fallujah, or Mosul
“he systematically breaks for the first time and only time in history the great walls of Carthage. He gets into the city and then over a two-week period he systematically kills every single person... the Roman army has to scrape off the bodies because they've killed so many people... it's like Gaza or Fallujah or Mosul.”
Roman consuls landed at Utica with 70,000 to 100,000 troops, which was larger than the American invasion force at Normandy (135,000 for the entire British and American forces), and more people than the Americans alone landed
“Our sources are somewhat in disagreement but it could have been anywhere from 70 to 90 to 100,000 people. It took us all day to land 135,000, us being the British and the Americans. But the Americans themselves did not have as many people as the Romans landed at Utica.”
Realizing they had been betrayed and their weapons surrendered were worthless to save them, Carthaginians brought out Hasrubal (a fanatical general) who killed appeasers, rearmed the city using women's hair to make catapults, and organized a siege defense
“And now we have no weapons because they're going to make us move... they bring out of retirement, Hasrbal, who's this fanatic... And he says, 'Kill all the legates. Anybody who was an appeaser, we're in full moor. We're going to rearm.' And they do. They get all the women's hair, they make catapults and they go crazy”
Alexander had a plan to unite the quarrelsome Greek city-states under Macedonian rule to invade Persia and avenge a century of Persian slights while enriching himself, which required a stable home base
“he had a plan or an agenda that said, 'I will unite you and even though you think I'm semi-barbarous... we're going to unite and take Persia and pay them back for a century of slights and get rich in the process.'”
When inspectors returned from Carthage, they reported it as 'insidious' and concluded the city would rival Rome again, though some senators argued Carthage posed no threat and that competition kept Rome vigilant and prevented decadence
“After the inspectors came back, they said, 'These people are insidious. They may not have Hannibal but they're going to rival us again.'... There were people in the Roman Senate that said, 'No, no, don't do that.' They don't pose a threat and actually they're good for us because the more that they're there they put us on guard and they don't... we don't get luck. The Romans had this idea that affluence and leisure make you decadent.”
Rome presented Carthaginian allies with a choice: join Rome and become favored colonies sharing spoils, or face destruction; most allies defected, leaving Carthage isolated and militarily vulnerable without its weapons
“the Romans then told all of the Carthaginian allies on the North Coast, 'Are you with us or against us? Because if you're with us, we're going to destroy them and you're going to be a favored colony. You're going to get to share in the spoils. We won't tax you. You'll be the guys that run North Africa for it.' If you're with them, we're going to do to them what you... And so most of them, not all defect.”
Carthage's walls were 27 miles of fortifications on a peninsula, the greatest walls in the ancient world (until Constantinople), making it extremely difficult for Rome to breach despite Roman siege superiority; Rome lost battles and 20,000-30,000 troops over two years
“The problem the Romans have is these walls are, until Constantinople, they are the greatest walls in the ancient world, 27 miles of fortifications. Carthage is on a peninsula... And they've got that all area walled... it's very hard to take that city and the Romans are not known for their siege craft and they can't take it. And they lose, lose, lose... after two years, they've lost probably 20 or 30,000 Romans.”
Alexander threatened to kill every Theban over age 16, enslave every woman and child, but spared the descendants of Pindar the poet and some religious shrines, then razed the city to its foundations
“he says, 'I'm gonna kill every single person that's over the age of 16. I'm gonna enslave every woman and child.' But you know what? I will save the descendants of Pindar, the poet, his house, and maybe some religious shrines and he levels the city down to the foundations”
Rome had consolidated Spain, Italy, much of Greece, and Macedon by the time Carthage had recovered, and was in an expansionary mood; some Romans, particularly Cato the Elder, repeatedly insisted 'Carthage must be destroyed' as the epithet of every speech
“Rome unfortunately was in this expansionary mood. They had now consolidated Spain. They had consolidated Italy. They consolidated much of Greece and soon would conquer all of Greece and Macedon and they had Cato the Elder and he got up, you know, legendarily and say, 'Carthage must be destroyed as the epithet of every speech.'”
Rome brought in Scipio Aemilianus, the adopted grand-nephew of Scipio Africanus, a philosopher and man of letters with a circle of playwrights and friendship with historian Polybius, who brought military discipline and strategic genius to overcome the siege
“they bring out of this obscurity, Scipio Emilianus and he is the adopted nephew, grand nephew of Scipio Africanus, the famous one. And he is a philosopher like Alexander the Great. He's a man of letters. He has a Scipionic circle, playwrights... He's a friend of Polybius the Great historian just like Alexander has the student of Aristotle.”
The population of Carthage had nowhere to go and was starving; Scipio killed everyone except Hasrubal, who flipped and cut a deal with Scipio, leaving his wife to burn herself; Hasrubal was later paraded in a Roman triumph and humiliated but allowed to live
“They have nowhere to go. They're stuck and they're starving... there is Hasrbal and his wife and of course he flips and cuts a deal... he ends up in retirement in Italy, one of the few people who is... endures a Roman triumph and humiliated in the parade and they let him live.”
The Athenians were egging the Thebans on to revolt against Alexander, promising that Spartan support would follow, but both the Athenians and Spartans were in decline and ultimately abandoned Thebes to face Alexander alone.
“The Athenians are egging the Thebans on and said, "Don't worry, we'll come." And the Spartans are going to come, both of them in decline. And the long and the short of it is he arrives there. The Thebans mock him.”
Contemporary threats by Turkish, Russian, and Chinese leaders to destroy Ukraine, Taiwan, Armenians, Greeks, and Israel are explicit existential threats that should be taken seriously rather than dismissed as mere hyperbole
“In the epilogue, I think I mentioned maybe a half a dozen, or maybe even a dozen direct threats by various Turkish figures, Russian, Chinese, where they actually threaten to destroy and wipe out, whether it's Ukraine or Taiwan, or the Armenians, or Greeks, or Israel.”
Philip II died and Alexander, his 21-year-old son, took power; Alexander had been at the Battle of Chaeronea at age 18 where he performed spectacularly in defeating the Thebans, but the Greek city-states did not take him seriously as a successor
“He died, he was assassinated and he had his 21-year-old son who had been at the Battle of Carinea at 18 and had been spectacular in defeating the Theban and they didn't take him seriously.”
The destruction of Thebes was so complete that there were no more Thebans (a distinct people with their own culture, history, and dialect) for two millennia until the Macedonians refounded a city called Thebes with other Greeks, but it was not the same culture
“and there are no more Thebans. Later the Macedoians will take the site and bring in other people, other Greeks. And so there is no longer a Theban who have been there for two millennia. They're gone.”
Hannibal was an authentic Alexander or Napoleon-like figure who took the war home to Italy during the Second Punic War, killing or wounding a quarter million Italians over a decade through battles at Trebia, Lake Trasimone, and Cannae before Scipio Africanus forced him to return home
“Unfortunately for Rome, they were confronted with an authentic Alexander Napoleon-like figure in Hannibal... From 219 to 202, this war went on... he killed or wounded a quarter million Italians... until Scipio Africanus invaded Tunisia and forced him to come home.”
After the Second Punic War, Rome imposed a punitive peace on Carthage requiring a huge fine, prohibition on war without Roman permission, surrender of European and Sicilian colonies, and confinement largely to the city of Carthage—essentially putting Carthage 'in a box'
“they had given a very punitive piece to the Carthaginians and they said, 'You're going to pay this huge fine and you can never make war without our permission. You're going to surrender all of your European and Sicilian colonies. You're going to have it and you're going to be largely confined to the city of Carthage and some satellite villages.'”
Scipio Aemilianus lectured the troops on their incompetence and laziness, built a counter-wall, cut off the city's corridor and supply routes, besieged it, and systematically broke the 27-mile walls of Carthage for the first time in history
“He has discipline. They build a counter wall... He cuts off the city. He cuts off the corridor. He cuts off all the allies supplying them and he besieges them... he systematically breaks for the first time and only time in history the great walls of Carthage.”
The myth that Romans sowed Carthage with salt is inaccurate, but Rome did declare it inhospitable and didn't refound it for many years; only under Caesar did Romans build 'Carthago Nova' (a new city) on a nearby site, but it was a Roman city, not a restoration of the old
“I don't think it's accurate to say they sowed the ground with salt as myth goes, but they did completely declare it an inhospitable place... Romans under Caesar then they make something called Carthago Nova, a new city, but it's a Roman city built on the... somewhat near the old city.”
The Thebans, confident in their city's legendary Seven Gates and magnificent walls which had only been breached once in history, expected to defend successfully, but were instead decisively defeated when they sallied out from the city.
“they think, this is the seven gates of Thebes, the magnificent walls of Thebes. We've only been broached once after the Persian War. We can endure, we're on the defensive, we've got this wonderful army, we'll go out in front of the...and they're defeated.”
The destruction of Thebes shocked all other Greek city-states into total submission and became shameful even among the Macedonians, but nobody came to Thebes' aid despite their confidence that Alexander would not follow through
“They could not believe it. They completely folded... it became shameful that Alexander had destroyed this legacy city... he'd wipe them out and they regretted it later. But at the time, nobody came to their aid. They were very confident. They didn't think anybody would ever do that and they were shocked.”
Philip II of Macedon transformed a depreciated, uncivilized backwater mountainous region into an imperial power over 20 years prior to 335 BC through military innovation and borrowed Greek tactics
“For 20 years prior to 335, Philip II of Macedon... had taken a backwater area that was deprecated as uncivilized by Greeks... And he had forged a imperial power. He borrowed... he was a hostage at Thebes when he was a young man himself and he learned from the great master of Pamanondas about Greek military tactics.”
The Greek city-states believed Alexander was unproven and willing to rebel against Macedonian control, with Thebes leading because it had been the legendary moral and cultural center under Epaminondas, home to Oedipus and Antigone myths, and a Pythagorean enlightened society
“Don't take him, we're going to revolt... Thebes was at this time legendary because it's the legendary home of Oedipus and Antigone. It's the fountain of Greek mythology... it had been under Pamanondas, a Pythagorean, enlightened society. The first really expansive democracy was trying to democratize the Peloponnese. So it was the moral leader at this point.”
Greek warfare rules (except in the Peloponnesian War) prohibited destroying an enemy city—even when Athens lost the Peloponnesian War to Sparta and Thebes, they were not destroyed
“the rules of Greek warfare, except for the Peloponnese, you don't destroy your enemy. You don't, even Athens as it lost the Peloponnesian War, they did not destroy Athens. The Spartans and the Thebans.”
Rome declared Carthage an inhospitable and sacrosanct place to be avoided, razed it to the foundations, and wiped out the Punic center of knowledge including all Punic agronomy literature
“they did completely declare it an inhospitable place and it was sacrosanct to even get near it. They took it down to the foundation. There is no more formal Punic center of knowledge. They had a very rich agriculture, agronomy literature. It's gone.”
There is a repeating typology or pattern in how civilizations are annihilated, with distinctive mindsets and behaviors on both the attacking and defending sides that could be applicable to modern situations.
“I was wondering if there was a typology, a repeating pattern, and if it would be applicable to any of the value. And I found that there was, both on the part of the attacker, certain a mindset, and on the part of the defender, and that those situations that we think could not happen today, because we're supposedly a postmodern moral world.”
Modern postmodern moral societies believe annihilation cannot happen to them because they assume they are more advanced than ancient civilizations, but this is a false assumption unsupported by historical evidence
“those situations that we think could not happen today, because we're supposedly a postmodern moral world”
The book title 'The End of Everything: How Wars Descend into Annihilation' indicates that wars can cross a threshold where they cease being merely military conflicts and become civilizational annihilations, representing a distinct category requiring separate analysis.
“Victor Davis Hanson's newest book, The End of Everything, How Wars Descend into Annihilation.”
Carthage was re-fashioning itself from an imperial power to something like Singapore or Hong Kong—a purely mercantile trading city
“They were sort of re-fashioning themselves from an imperial power to something like Singapore or Hong Kong.”
The Sarissa was an innovation (elongated pike) in Greek phalanx warfare developed by Philip II that improved upon traditional Greek tactics by fighting in column formation
“He lengthened the Sarissa... He innovated and improved on Greek phalanx warfare, fighting in Colum.”
At the Battle of Chaeronea three years prior to 335 BC, Philip II defeated an allied army of Thebans and Athenians and other city-states, destroying Greek freedom and ending consensual government in the city-states
“at the Battle of Carinea three years prior to this. He destroyed Greek freedom by this... basically it was an army of Thebans and Athenians and a few other city states and they were conquered and they were occupied and there was no longer a truly consensual government in these cities”
Carthage and Rome were founded around the same time but represented antithetical civilizations: Carthage was Punic-Semitic (Phoenician-founded around modern Tunisia, 90 miles across from Sicily), while Rome was Latin, and they fought three Punic Wars for Mediterranean dominance
“Carthage was founded about the same time as Rome was... it's an ancient word, Punic, and all that is, is a Phoenician transliteration for Phoenician culture that would be today where Gaza is along that area. This was a colony, colonists founded under the mythical Dido at what is modern Tunisia, right? Just 90 miles opposite, it's the narrowest point of the Mediterranean.”
Carthage was a Punic-Semitic culture whose language was not linguistically related to Greek or Latin; they practiced child sacrifice (which classical culture abhorred), but they had a constitutional system influenced by Greek history and learned Western warfare from Spartan taskmasters
“they were a Punic-Semitic culture, so their language was not linguistically related to Greek or Latin. They did things that classical culture abhorred such as child sacrifice. However, they did, were heavily influenced by Greek constitutional history, so they actually had a constitutional system. They learned about Western warfare from Spartan taskmasters.”
Alexander was capable of marching 200 miles from the north in 10 days by moving at 20+ miles per day, demonstrating logistical prowess and speed comparable to Napoleon and Caesar
“You can't get 200 miles from the north in 10 days. You can if you're Alexander. You march at 20 plus miles a day.”
Remnants of the Punic population survived into Augustine's time (fifth century AD), with some people still claiming to speak Punic, but the civilization and its knowledge had been entirely destroyed
“What happens? It's remnants of people who in Augustine's time in the fifth century AD, there are still people who they claim speak Punic, very few of them.”
Peter Robinson and Victor Davis Hanson engage in a discussion of whether the destruction of Thebes shocked other Greek city-states into complete submission, which Hanson confirms was the psychological effect, with Robinson noting Alexander 'got the stable home base he wanted that permitted him to advance.'
“So he got the stable home base he wanted that permitted him to advance into... Yes.”
Thebes had a population of between 15,000 and 25,000 citizens and perhaps 5,000 to 10,000 residents; it was the capital of Boeotia, which had 150,000 to 250,000 people, and spoke a distinct dialect
“It was somewhere between 15 and 25,000 citizens and maybe at most 5 or 10,000 residents. But it was the capital of what we would call today in English a province called Boeotia. And that probably had somewhere around 150 to 250 and it was the capital that subjugated that... But it has separate dialect, Theban dialect was different than the Boeotian dialect”
Peter Robinson is a fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford and the host of Uncommon Knowledge
“I'm Peter Robinson, a fellow at the Hoover Institution here at Stanford”