What this covers
Alexander Wolfe x Alain de Botton.
These conversations live somewhere around the edges of the album.
They’re about mental health, masculinity, and the stuff that sits underneath both - shame, silence, identity, all of it.
The record started with a song called “Talk,” about how often we don’t say what’s actually going on.
These are attempts to do that.
This first conversation is with Alain de Botton
Content warning: this episode includes discussions of suicide and drug use.
Video production by www.studiostranded.uk
https://www.instagram.com/alexanderwolfegram
https://www.alexanderwolfe.co.uk/
https://www.alaindebotton.com/
Source description (no synthesized summary yet).
Mental health recovery and creative authenticity require confronting trauma through community, love, and artistic vulnerability rather than external validation or technical perfection.
- The speaker was 'loved out of' mental crisis through family and community support, suggesting connection is curative
- True creative work emerges from sincere self-exploration, not from commercial optimization or audience-pleasing
- Male mental health specifically requires breaking cultural conditioning that equates vulnerability with weakness
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Humans can be trained to be insane through unreliable and unkind behavior, losing faith in the reliability of the world and developing what we call insanity or madness—all madness is fundamentally about love, or the lack of love (kindness, generosity, sympathy).
“Unreliable behavior, unkind behavior leads to madness. Yeah. Um... All madness is about love, a lack of love in some way. I think I say this in the book. Um it's You know, what we mean by love is is kindness, generosity, sympathy, etc. These are the things that keep people stable. And an absence of that, you know, I mean if you go into a psychiatric ward sure you're you're familiar with this, right? Everybody on that Everybody on the ward will have had a particularly intense experience of cruelty.”
People who are walking well are insulated by experience of love, just as people on psychiatric wards have had intense experiences of cruelty—this is the fundamental causal relationship between love and mental stability.
“Just as people who are walking well are insulated by experience of love... Everybody on the ward will have had a particularly intense experience of cruelty.”
Parents are ordinary people who don't understand life any more than their children, but children experience parents as possessing supernatural knowledge and wisdom because parents knew practical things (how plugs work, how to make tea) when the child knew nothing.
“Parents are just ordinary people who happen to do this slightly strange thing called making a baby. But um but for the child, always have a supernatural position... The child will turn to the parent as though the parent has some bit of the meaning of life, the secret of the meaning of life in their possession. And of course, many parents are just like well, all parents are just like shrugging their shoulders. They don't know what they're up to, either... they knew how plug worked and they knew how to make a cup of tea and they knew how to throw a ball and then they knew everything including they put us on the earth.”
When a parent is deficient or absent (through bankruptcy, alcoholism, or in this case, spiritual confusion), the child often has to compensate for the parent's missing function at great cost to their own development, though this can also lead to extraordinary achievements.
“I mean, I don't want to wish a difficult childhood on anyone. One of the things that it does is it forces the child to compensate for the parent's missing bit. It's like if a parent goes bankrupt or starts drinking or something, you know, the child has to step up often at huge cost to their own natural development. But um it can lead if you if you're interested in that in some pretty extraordinary achievements.”
A breakdown is the point at which the difficulty of staying ahead of one's problems becomes so arduous that you enter a serious situation which forces you to go back and confront issues that have been lingering.
“I think that's what a breakdown is. A breakdown is the difficulty of keeping one step ahead of your problems as as become so arduous um that you're then in serious situation which only gives you the chance to go back and confront all sorts of things that have been lingering.”
A well-read person is not defined by the quantity of books read, but by the depth of metabolization and transformation that reading produces—the number is irrelevant if the reader has deeply engaged with the right books.
“you know, we've Now days we imagine that a well-read person has read hundreds, thousands of books, but um it's all about what you do with them, isn't it? I think so. You metabolize the book... It's not It's not the number you read. People who read every book under the sun hasn't changed them one bit.”
It is important for creative people to stop doing creative work periodically in order to allow it to gestate properly, but capitalism doesn't allow this—it pressures artists to always be producing.
“presumably is very important at points not to work, not to do creative work, in order then that creative work can be, you know, Mhm. to recognize, to to put one's tools down, those tools down, maybe to go and do something else. Again, capitalism doesn't quite allow that. Once you're a musician, you've got to always be a musician.”
The phrase 'connect to myself' makes sense because we can be more or less ourselves, and the reason we value art is that works that speak to us come from a place of true self.
“Well, she's an interesting phrase. Helps me to connect to myself. It's kind of weird. If you said to a visiting Martian, 'Here are these human beings. They need to connect to themselves.' You know, hang on a minute. What are you connected to otherwise? Yeah. But I think what we're, you know, the reason why that sentence makes sense is that we're all aware that we can be more or less ourselves.”
Art is a particularly honest form of communication because day-to-day, humans do not manage authentic expression at all—we are constrained by politeness and social conventions.
“Art is a particularly honest form of communication. Um because day-to-day, my goodness, day-to-day we don't manage this at all.”
Humans need pauses and large distances (like in Scandinavian farming communities) to withdraw into themselves periodically—without these distances, people catch collective insanity.
“You know, that expression in Finland, it's a long way between the farms. Um and uh I think in in Scandinavia generally, big distances between farms. It helps to have big distances between farms. Human beings, if they don't have a chance to sort of withdraw into themselves for a while, um they catch a collective insanity.”
Art is a form of communication with people you don't yet know—the artist must hold abstract, undefined people in mind during creation, but they are not specifically defined when the work is made.
“Art is this This is kind of communication with people you don't yet know. And then people come along afterwards, but you you've had them in your mind. You have to have them in your mind in order to create the work of art, but they're not defined. They're just a sort of abstract thing.”
Being a man is difficult because one of the first things taught to boys is that becoming feminine or appearing feminine results in bullying and potential violence, leading boys to learn to deny and repress vulnerability.
“it's it's very difficult being a man cuz one of the first things you you're taught being a man is that if you're not careful, you become a girl. And if you become a girl, that's It's and you'll be bullied and possibly killed as it were, you know, in the in the school playground. And so you learn that you have to um deny, repress, etc.”
Creativity is about accessing authentic or true parts of oneself—artistic people who have stalled may have stopped exploring themselves deeply, stopped thinking and feeling deeply.
“creativity is that it is about um accessing bits of oneself that are more authentic or more true or you know, you have to do the work. And and so if we're thinking about musicians who've stalled it's like have they stopped exploring themselves? Um it's not Yes. You know, they've stopped thinking and feeling deeply. Yeah.”
Contemporary life has moved from the village to the city to living inside everybody else's diary (through phones and social media), representing increasing loss of psychological privacy and space.
“we've been living very tightly. You know, we moved from the village into the city and then from the city into everybody else's diary. We're now living inside everybody else's diary. Right. And and that's a that's a dangerous place to be. There are reasons why diaries should be kept in cupboards, but we've for sure we're we're reading everybody else's diary.”
In previous decades, a successful music career would have provided the material fruits (like homeownership) that contribute to security, but the speaker notes that historical famous musicians (Kurt Cobain, Jeff Buckley) were not necessarily happy despite success.
“I don't own a house for instance, and I would have any other decade I'd own a house... In a way like you only have to look at, you know, Kurt Cobain and Jeff Buckley and you name it to realize that the the the fruits of a successful music career back in the day did not supply happiness.”
The musician was 'loved out of' his mental illness and suicide attempt through community, family support, and social connection, contrasting with people who remain hospitalized multiple times because they lack that loving community to facilitate recovery.
“I was loved out of my crisis. And presumably you were unloved into it.”
Trauma is an experience of difficulty that was too big for the person's capacity for understanding at the time, so it had to be experienced and borne without being properly processed, understood, or put in context.
“Trauma is an experience that of difficulty that was not processed at the time that was too big for the person's capacities for understanding. And so it it it had to be born and experienced without being properly as I say, processed, understood, put in context, etc.”
Trauma has a double quality: it is both really important to think about and absolute hell to think about, so people typically avoid thinking about traumatic experiences until their lives become so awful that the pain of avoidance exceeds the pain of confrontation.
“A trauma is something you need to go back and think about and at the same time that you will be very, very reluctant to think about. It's got that double quality. It's both really important to think about and absolute hell to think about. Which is normally why people who've had traumatic experiences have to wait until their lives become so awful that it gives them the impetus to do that even more awful thing, which is go back and think about why their lives become awful.”
The speaker read 'The Therapy Journey' four or five times and used it as a manual for recovery, treating it like an actual friend present during darkness.
“I didn't just read it once. I read it um four or five times... I read it and I used it as a manual. Right. It was a I mean listen, what you're saying is exactly what I hoped would happen with that book... It felt like an actual friend. Right. Like a Like even the physicality of it. The green, the pink... The hardback.”
If creative work doesn't come from a sincere place, it's not worth putting out—the audience would rather smell it than consume it, it has to be authentic.
“Cuz the audience You don't want to bore the audience. They have to go to the bookshop or go to the music shop. You only have to smell it. It's as well It's as well if it's not come from a sincere place. Forget it.”
The speaker is 6 feet 4 inches tall and was tall from a young age, and this physical size contributes to a sense of personal safety that his female friends do not experience—women walk through the world constantly feeling physically scared and unsafe.
“How tall are you? I'm actually 6 ft 4. That is tall. Yeah, it's pretty... What does that do for you that you walk through the world as a very tall person? I don't Did you get tall very young? I was tall young, yeah... I have a sense of my own safety. If that makes sense. You feel safe. I've never felt I can't talk to my my my friend my my female little friends who are like who have walked through the world Right. literally walk through the world being physically scared unsafe all the time.”
In psychotherapy when it's working, one is in the presence of another person talking without censoring themselves in a raw way, speaking without quite knowing where one is going.
“when it's working you are in the presence of another person talking without censoring yourself Yeah. Yeah. in a very raw way. Um speaking without quite knowing where you're going. You You we're on similar territory here.”
No historical period has been entirely sane, but there are amplifiers of bad tendencies in the world—devices and cultural systems that magnify human dysfunction.
“I mean no age has been totally sane. Um the human animal's been sick for a long time but I guess there are amplifiers of bad our bad tendencies. We could say the world's full of amplifiers at the moment, these things.”
The speaker's new album is a narrative about a young working-class man in Lewisham struggling with his identity, role in the world, and what it means to be a human and a young man in his specific cultural context.
“I then another part of my recovery from that period was making the album I just released. Um which I suppose would be my therapeutic journey in that it is a narrative about a young man growing up, struggling with his space in the world and like whether he is um you know, what is he? What is a human? What is a young man in especially a actually specifically a working-class young man in Lewisham? Like what is that? What's his role in the world?”
De Botton distrusts anyone who wants to be a pop star because it is a self-serving ambition, similar to how wanting to be prime minister should disqualify someone from the role.
“I have a difficulty with where the music industry's at now with um this is algorithmic patternization of kind of trying to become a pop star. And actually, I don't trust anyone who wants to be a pop star. I don't I don't know who said this, but like and this is the wrong words, like wanting to be prime minister should disqualify you from being prime minister. And in a way, wanting to be a a pop star should disqualify you in a way because it's such a self-serving ambition.”
Phones are amplifiers of dysfunction—they distract from engaging with deeper parts of ourselves that need attention, and they prevent the pauses necessary for psychological health.
“Um Well, our phones don't help. Obviously they don't. They're communication devices but they're not helping us to communicate with the more sincere bits of ourselves. Um they distract us from, you know, engaging with things. We need we need pauses, don't we, in order to remain sane. We don't have so many pauses.”
The speaker experienced a major breakdown several years ago that left him devoid of meaning and purpose, leading him to attempt suicide and require hospitalization in a mental health hospital.
“I had a big big breakdown Mhm. a few years ago and it was very painful experience and I ended up devoid of meaning and purpose and you know, Mhm. more than most, I think... And I tried to take my life and I ended up going to a um mental health hospital for a while. Um... yeah, really dark moment for me.”
Women are much better at friendship than men because they don't face the same pressure about what they can and cannot say, and this is what makes male company 'very boring.'
“Women are much better at friendship because there's not that kind of pressure about what you can say and what you can't say. It's really difficult. Um you you need men who've had nervous breakdowns. Men who have... Men I mean but by the way, men men who've gone mad are really interesting.”
Maternal love and maternal ambition directed toward a son creates confidence and a sense of being special in the boy, which is foundational to male confidence.
“And you know, they do say that maternal love is behind a lot of male confidence. Yeah. And I think that's really true. To feel that your mother is directing a lot of her own ambition maybe that you know, you can do it. You can You're going to be a special boy. That's a very special thing.”
The speaker felt uncomfortable when discussing his status as his mother's special child because of cultural conditioning in his community, where being a 'mommy's boy' was associated with weakness and the most admired men were drug dealers and 'hard' men.
“It's interesting actually cuz culturally even then when you said that I felt uncomfortable and I think I felt uncomfortable because of my conditioning around what you were saying before about being soft and about being a mommy's boy, I grew up in a culture where the the most um revered men around were the drug dealers and they were the the hardest men. Right? I grew up in a culture where that was the thing to be aspired to.”
The speaker realized his father was just an ordinary confused human when his father said something that revealed his spiritual and conspiratorial beliefs were unfounded, putting pressure on the speaker to start thinking for himself.
“I actually don't remember the circumstances around it, but I remember the feeling of realizing my dad was just I think it's cuz my dad said something that was just oh, you don't really believe that, do you? Kind of thing, you know? Um my dad has a lot of beliefs around uh spiritual mhm practices and some conspiracy stuff and and and I just remembered realizing that they were bollocks and going oh, no. That puts a big big pressure on the child.”
The speaker came to realize through de Botton's book that his internal dialogue was brutally self-critical—he was speaking to himself in ways he would never permit anyone else to speak to him.
“Part of what your book made me do, I think, was recraft my or like reteach my internal dialogue. Mhm. I didn't realize I had an internal dialogue, really, Mhm. until that. And realizing how brutally um like you I wouldn't accept anyone to like I wouldn't let anyone speak to me like that, you know?”
A friend named Tea Cakes offered the speaker a 'soft landing' by allowing him to stay in his house upon returning to the UK, and placed a hardback copy of 'The Therapy Journey' on his pillow with instructions not to leave until agreeing with a David Shrigley painting saying 'life is fantastic.'
“I got a text message from a guy called Tea Cakes. He's a friend of mine. He sent me a message that said um I know you're having a difficult time. Um I want to offer you a soft landing. So when you get back to the UK you come and stay with me and it was beautiful actually and it was really like moving and so I got back to the UK and I went to his house and he had made up this room for me... There's something about it being it was something so loving and so kind... on the pillow was a hardback copy of The Therapy Journey. Yeah and he said... he had a uh he had a painting on the wall that was like... it was just of hand holding an ice cream and he said life is fantastic and he said you can't leave until you agree with that painting.”
The concept of 'late style' in art describes how aging artists become less concerned with technical perfection and more focused on sincere expression—they stop polishing every detail and instead rush to capture essence, accepting roughness because they have less time.
“Do you know this concept of late style in art? Mhm. Bear with me while I explain it. The idea of late styles, various theories have had it that that as an artist gets older, they care less about technique and more about sincerity. Yeah. Time clock ticking and they just care about getting it down the way they see it and they don't mind if they're a painter, they're not they're not going to do every bush and every leaf. They're just just going to try and summarize it.”
Modern music industry has lost philosophical ambition, unlike religions that used music to express the biggest themes about life, meaning, and purpose.
“very often music you know, I think of religions that created that use music to express the biggest themes about life and its meaning and its purpose. I think one of the things that's gone wrong with modern music is that it's it's lacking ambition, really. Yeah. Philosophical ambition, really.”
Culture plays a role in whether musicians can continue to evolve—Oasis was in cultural sync with the mid-90s, but when their 'racket' became normalized, they didn't evolve like Radiohead did, partly due to class-based differences in orientation toward artistic reinvention.
“if I use Oasis as an example, they were in the uh in the mid-90s they had this they kicked against what there was there. Yeah. Um and they made a racket, a really obnoxious, really confident racket... And then that racket became normal. Right... And then they became another one of the bands that sounded a bit like and they also didn't evolve like a Radiohead or they were um like Radiohead would move and change and musically experimenting because they're more educated and they're middle class and they and they have this kind of attitude towards art which is to be um seeking novelty or reinventing themselves and whereas Oasis are from this um working class unions things like I've got a job go do the job and it's kind of I'm all right if it's not broke don't fix it kind of thing.”
People's first or breakthrough albums often feel pure and true, but after that they try to recreate that success within capitalism's constraints, moving from free creation to strategic creation aimed at commercial success.
“A lot of the time I think people's first albums or like at least their first breakthrough album is um very kind of feels very true and very like pure and then after that they've like they're trying to recreate within capitalism what the last one did, you know? So they whereas so So not creating freely, they're creating with an eye on success.”
Conscious minds and rational faculties often keep us in uncreative territory, which is why psychedelic therapies work—by reducing the activity of higher rational faculties, they allow access to deeper, more valuable parts of mind.
“there's a strange way in which our conscious minds and our sort of more rational faculties often keep us on quite uncreative territory. Um and you know, it's why psychedelic therapies taken off. You zonk out those more those higher rational faculties and you get to some some an or o r e that's more valuable.”
The Beatles succeeded through swagger and cultural presence rather than traditional academic musical talent, channeling an authenticity and 'want to tell the truth' (like John Lennon) rather than technical craftsmanship (like Paul McCartney).
“music's always had that. Look at the Beatles Yeah, for sure. And without much talent, I mean not with inverted commas talent, academic musical talent, to just be like just had that they just had this swagger and it was so intoxicating to a Mhm. 14-year-old... they were just channeling whatever Johnny Rotten had or whatever like John Lennon has over Paul McCartney, if that makes sense. What does John Lennon have over Paul McCartney? He has an immediacy and a a want to tell the truth. He wants to get to the essence. Like I see Paul McCartney as a more of a craftsman. Right.”
De Botton found courage to create his distinctive work through writers like Milan Kundera and Roland Barthes, and visual artists like Cy Twombly, who gave him permission to work outside standard categories.
“I found a few writers who gave me the courage to do what I really wanted to do. So one is the Czech writer Milan Kundera, Mhm. uh who gave me courage. French writer Roland Barthes gave me courage. You know, and I use that word, um you know, with care. It really is courage. You just think, 'Oh, they've done that.' I have a few of those actually. Um but there's also, you know, painters, um abstract artist Cy Twombly, um I don't know. You just You find people that you think, 'Yeah, these people are my people.'”
Artists have a 'golden period' of a few years where their creativity is peak, followed by potentially decades where nothing much happens, even when the artist still possesses all their technical skills and experience.
“What does happen to an artist as they get older? it's very weird. I mean I think about this that artists have this sort of golden period. Perhaps more than writers. They really have a few years where it's all happening. And then it could be decades where nothing much happens. And and you think And that's the same person.”
After his breakdown, the speaker lived in a monastery in Vietnam for 4 months with monks, which was healing and involved significant learning and personal growth.
“I lived in Vietnam for 4 months. I went to stay in a monastery there with monks which was very healing and very interesting and I went to see a shaman and I did all sorts of stuff. It was very it was a time of great like learning and great healing”
The speaker feels lit up by life after recovery and wouldn't change anything about his current circumstances, suggesting that the crisis and recovery process was necessary for his present wellbeing.
“I wouldn't change anything now cuz I've been through this very dark space and I'm out the other end and I feel very um lit up by my life.”
To support himself, the speaker must work on other projects beyond music, including writing theater shows and film scores, which allows him to avoid the pressure of constant music production.
“And I have to do other things for money, so I have to write theater shows, and I have to write do film scores.”
The people in the psychiatric ward where the speaker stayed were among the loveliest, kindest, warmest, and most broken people he's ever met, and some had been there three times—suggesting a pattern of institutional failure to address root causes.
“some of the loveliest people I've ever met... And some of the kindest and warmest and most obviously most broken people. And some of those people had been there three times.”
The speaker was inspired by Jimi Hendrix's freedom and expressionism, and his constant state of creative flow, which provided a counterpoint to the speaker's environment of concrete and tracksuits.
“Jimi Hendrix as soon as I was in my teens, I was like, there's a freedom and like a an expressionism to what he does that's just so like beautiful and like he's so in flow Mhm. all the time, Mhm. you know? And that was really inspiring from where I was, you know, surrounded by concrete, Yeah. wearing tracksuits”
Nick Drake's music helped the speaker understand his 'black dog' (depression) and understand it was not unique to him, and Oasis provided an example of working-class musicians who achieved extraordinary success.
“And maybe like Nick Drake when I was starting to understand like my Mhm. black dog. Mhm. Oasis were big. Oasis were huge. And actually there's something about you saying about like the courage. Mhm. Um seeing them come from um a council estate in Manchester Mhm. become what they became.”
Suicide is the most likely thing to kill young men—the speaker has nearly been killed this way—and approximately 80% of men who die by suicide were not diagnosed with any mental health condition, suggesting men would rather die than talk to a therapist.
“there is this um statistic about how well, the most likely thing to kill me is me. Yeah. You know? And that is quite shocking. Mm. Totally shocking. And nearly happened as well. So it's extra interesting to me and that to dive into that statistic and it's not true of women and it's not true of um other demographics and it's and and more interesting than that I think is apparently something like 80% of the of those men who do die in that way were not uh diagnosed as having any which suggests that men would rather like die than talk about that right? It's literally I'd rather I'd literally rather die than say than go to therapy.”
The speaker observed that he was about to ask a friend he hadn't seen for a year 'What have you been up to?' before realizing he already knew everything about the friend's life through social media.
“I saw a friend um a couple of days ago uh who I hadn't seen for like a year. And I realized when I I was about to say, 'What have you been up to?' And I was like, 'I know everything about you.' You know?”
The speaker has made four previous albums that were self-reflective, and this new album differs by having a narrative arc—a story structure like Mike Skinner's 'A Grand Don't Come for Free' which chronicles a man losing a thousand pounds while navigating relationships and difficulties with women.
“This is not my first album. I've made four previous albums and they were I mean, they've always been kind of self-reflective, but How do you see this album differing or Um What's it What's it doing? Well, it's a narrative for a start. So, it's I've always loved those albums like A Grand Don't Come for Free by The Streets, which is a huge influence on it. Which is a lovely Mike Skinner wrote this beautiful like arc of a a guy losing a thousand pounds. But in the story, there's all these relationships with friends and these difficulties with women and it's one of my favorite albums of all time. I've always wanted to make um a an album that had that kind of story arc.”
Musicians face particularly tough conditions from capitalism compared to other professions, more so than people equally affected by capitalist pressures.
“capitalism um it everyone equally in a way, but not I think not equally. I think music industry's had it particularly tough.”
Kendrick discusses the African-American struggle and social positioning, often disappears from public view, and has incorporated voiceovers from Eckhart Tolle on his records, showing his commitment to the work over commercial advantage.
“He talks a lot about the the African-American struggle like in the way that they where they are and culturally. And then similarly he just disappears and he had Eckhart Tolle on his record. He had like these voiceovers from Eckhart Tolle like... So he's in he's doing the work and actually like it's lovely to see someone um pushing so hard cuz he's a star as well.”
The speaker has been influenced by Kendrick Lamar, whom he considers the best artist working in the world, because of Kendrick's rawness, vulnerability, and truth, which is rare in hip-hop culture that is dominated by braggadocio about guns and drugs.
“I'm hugely influenced by like Kendrick. Okay. I think he's the best artist working in the world actually. Um and... I'm who Because of this aspect of the kind of rawness of it... with him it's just he has this natural ability with storytelling and a vulnerability and a truth that's so rare within that culture, that hip hop culture that's so much about like guns and drugs and braggy stuff and he doesn't brag. He just is, you know?”
Hip-hop artists typically write and record simultaneously ('on the mic'), using spoken-word automatic writing energy, and Kanye famously doesn't write anything down but records continuously, capturing what comes out organically.
“we were talking about your late style. Late style in general. Getting it down. Yeah. I think hip hop they're on the mic and they're writing on the mic. Kanye um uh famously doesn't write anything down. He just records. And records and records and it just what comes out comes out. So there's a a sort of spoken word automatic writing energy to hip hop.”
There is a 'locking up of young men' happening in the current world—the speaker would not want to be a 14-year-old boy in this era.
“So there is there is this kind of like locking up of young men. I wouldn't want to be a 14-year-old boy now. This is a mad world we're in. Mm. You know?”
The creative part of a person (internal impulse) is completely separate from the part needing audience validation; maintaining creative output requires suppressing the need for audience approval and creating in isolation, opposite to the social media economy.
“I think I I think I began to realize that um the the bit of me that was able to create was a very different part of me to the bit that needed um an audience. For validation, yeah. Yeah, validation. And that I needed to be very careful cuz the need for validation was stifling the creative bit. Um and so I think if you're going to carry on as an artist, you have to be able to shut the door and just forget the audience. It's almost a different phase of of life.”
A work of art created during the immediate moment of inspiration and recorded with minimal revision ('the writing tape') is closer to truth than the same work refined through multiple takes and production iterations, which can become 'photocopies of photocopies' that lose the original authentic impulse.
“A lot of people when I um record a like a little voice note on their phone, and they're write a song there. And then they'll record a demo of it. Mhm. And then when they make the album, they'll go to the And by that point I think, at least I feel for my in my practice at least that's becoming a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy. Right. Cuz I think when you write the thing Yeah. it's It's the truest it's the truth.”
Psychological struggle becomes meaningful only when the person opens the door to it and develops conversance with it rather than denying or dissociating from it; many people struggle but reject their own suffering, missing the opportunity for growth.
“But also, lots of people struggle, but they're not they don't have the right attitude towards their struggle. You've got to kind of open the door to it and be relatively conversant with it. Cuz lots of people struggle and they're just so like, this is not me. I may seem like I struggle, but I don't identify with it, etc. And I'm not going to talk about it.”
Creative capacity and psychological health are linked; engaging with authentic creative practice (art, music, writing) is part of what makes a human psychologically healthy.
“creativity is essential to a healthy psyche. For you. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it is Well, I mean it depends I don't mean that I don't necessarily mean music Yeah, some kind painting or whatever. I I think so a creative thinking at least having a creative practice is part of what makes a human healthy.”
Men who have experienced mental breakdown or psychological crisis become interesting and capable of genuine friendship because they have been forced to reconnect with authentic emotional life, whereas men who have not struggled remain emotionally constrained.
“You need men who've had nervous breakdowns. Men who have [laughter] Men I mean but by the way, men men who've gone mad are really interesting. If you don't struggle, I'm out.”
The speaker's friend Tea Cakes gave him a fig before his first gig in a couple of years, and the speaker now buys a fig for every gig as a ritual object that represents sadness, vulnerability, humility, and reticence.
“when I did my first gig for a couple of years, T Cakes got me a fig. Mhm. Um so now when I do a gig, I'll go I go and buy a fig. And just tell the audience what does that fig mean to you? You say in the book that uh a fig understands sadness and vulnerability... Right. Yeah. And also that I think you say it has a um an attitude of humility and reticence.”
De Botton trained as a therapist and has multiple income/professional streams (writing, therapy, potentially media), providing him financial independence from any single creative field.
“I know, you know, when I write books, there's a certain sort of pressure to just always keep writing the next book... you know, I've had phases where I thought it's not cooked yet. I've I've got to go through experiences... I've also trained as a therapist. Mhm. Um it's good to have a second gig or third gig, you know, something else that you can be doing, so that you can be, you know, letting it gestate properly.”
The speaker stopped making music for a period because he was uninspired, and went so far as to train as a therapist, before realizing that creativity is essential to psychological health and returning to music-making.
“I actually gave up making music because I was uninspired through the same period... Yeah. And I became like completely stopped to the point where I started training as a therapist. I was out of the game, you know? Yeah. And it was only through recovery and through um realizing that creativity is essential to a healthy psyche. For you. Yeah. Yeah.”
Playing live music performances requires engaging with ego, excitement, and panic simultaneously, a high-stress psychological state that is necessary for performance but deeply unhealthy if maintained long-term.
“I think excitement and panic and um ego and I'm God all is in one place, you know? And you can like that you can put that you can choose to engage with that side of yourself... but then if you live with that too long, you go mad or it's really unhealthy. It's really uncreative, actually.”
The speaker unconsciously gravitates toward people with trauma in his social circles because trauma represents depth and authenticity; he would not be interested in people without significant struggle.
“Trauma is the one thing that I I like subconsciously look for in my my people, I think.”
Madness is contagious; collective insanity spreads through populations, and contemporary technological closeness accelerates this contagion.
“So and madness is catching as we know.”
De Botton experienced pressure to constantly write new books and has had phases where he realized the work 'wasn't cooked yet' and needed to go through experiences first before the next book would be ready.
“I know, you know, when I write books, there's a certain sort of pressure to just always keep writing the next book. And um you know, I've had phases where I thought it's not cooked yet. I've I've got to go through experiences. And when it'll be ready, I'll know it's ready. Um and that there's no point putting something out there that's not coming from a really deep place.”
Much art is created by people because they've announced themselves as artists and need to feed economic dependencies (agent, publisher, mortgage) rather than because the work is genuinely ready or authentic.
“Let's face it, a lot of art is created by people because they've now announced that they're artists and they have a mortgage to pay or they've got an agent to feed or a publisher to satisfy, rather than because it's really ready.”
The book 'Essays in Love' by de Botton became commercially successful (sold millions of copies), but de Botton deliberately did not pursue the commercial opportunity by maximizing publicity, recognizing the incompatibility between creative work and audience-seeking.
“You're in a position where you can be as much in the public consciousness as you want, basically. It's a choice you make. Um when you wrote your first book, um I don't know if it was your first book, but Essays of Love, is it? Essays in Love, yeah. Sold millions of copies, right? And why did you not engage with that as much as you could have in that way, if that makes sense?”
De Botton's book 'The Therapy Journey' is deliberately situated outside normal self-help genre categories—it functions as philosophy, diary, and personal manual rather than fitting standard literary categories.
“I don't really go for a new a new book is outside of my I don't know if it even counts as self-help or whatever you like. It's deliberately slightly outside of the normal thing... is it's philosophy, right? It's a sort of thing. It's a sort of thing. It's my diary. Yeah. Yeah.”
A shaman told the musician he had to create and express himself, and after a painful shamanic treatment, told him his gift would return—the next day the musician was inspired and wrote three songs after 18 months of writer's block.
“I went to see a shaman who was very vocal about how I had to create. Right. They were very much Very vocal about you need to be vocal. Yeah, you need to express yourself... After the treatment he gave me this very painful treatment. And he said your gift will return tomorrow if you let it. I went home and I the next day I just was inspired and I felt quite healed by the um and I wrote three songs. I hadn't written a song for 18 months.”
The speaker uses psychedelic mushrooms to access parts of himself, though he has stopped all other intoxicants and doesn't drink or use other drugs, as a way of connecting to himself.
“I mean, I I take I use psychedelics. I mean, I've stopped all kind of intoxicants, but I don't drink and I don't take drugs anymore, but I do take I do take mushrooms for kind of a like you know, a way of accessing parts of myself.”
Early Genesis (Peter Gabriel era) albums like 'Lamb Lies Down on Broadway' featured ambitious 18-minute songs about mythological descent narratives, representing a tradition of art music with narrative and thematic depth.
“you know, early Genesis, Lamb Lies Down on Broadway? I don't think Very interesting music. Peter Gabriel He's great, isn't he?... the early stuff with Genesis with Phil Collins and it's fantastic. Really. It's so ambitious. You have songs that are 18 minutes long about, you know, a person's descent into the underworld.”
The speaker had two half-brothers with a different mother, creating a family structure where he was the special child of one parent but experienced himself in comparison to other sons, complicating his experience of maternal favoritism.
“Just cuz there's there's this kind of it's like my I had two brothers who were had a different mother.”
The speaker maintains his album represents his commitment to continuous creative evolution and self-exploration so that he doesn't plateau like Oasis; he intends to stay interesting to himself over the next decades.
“How how will you I mean knowing that how will you stay interesting to yourself? Yeah. Over the next decades.”