YouTube46m· Jan 2023· cataloged

Mark Mills: The energy transition delusion: inescapable mineral realities


What this covers

Energy expert Mark Mills speaks at SKAGEN Funds New Years Conference 2023

Source description (no synthesized summary yet).

Sharpest takeaway

The global energy transition is not structurally feasible within the stated timelines and aspirations because mineral and mining constraints make it physically impossible to achieve the required 700-7000% increase in metal production while also satisfying growing absolute energy demand.

  • Current wind/solar supply only 3% of global energy; reaching 10% would require unprecedented metal extraction increases never achieved in human history
  • Mining requires 16 years average to open new mines, yet metal demand is accelerating now; supply cannot meet transition machine-building requirements
  • Energy transition requires shifting from liquids/gases to solids, necessitating material extraction equal to or greater than all other human material extraction combined—physically unsustainable

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0.80

Hydroelectric dams in Norway produce power 16 times more efficiently than wind and solar arrays (dams last 4x longer and produce 4x more energy per dollar invested), but this 16-fold advantage cannot be exported globally because most regions lack Norway's geographic conditions.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 2/4durability 4/4· Simon Michaux

the Renewables that Norway likes uh to use and is dominantly using have a particular Advantage the the Machinery Hydro dams last about four times longer than the Machinery of preference in the energy transition when melson solar arrays and they produce roughly four times more energy per dollar of capital invested so that 16-fold energy economics Advantage

0.75

Decoupling of economic growth from material consumption is a common claim—Western countries produce one unit of dollar GDP with one kilo of CO2, while China produces with half that (0.5 kg CO2/$) and industrializing countries with one-third (0.33 kg CO2/$)—but this is a monetary decoupling, not a physical decoupling; the physical quantity of materials extracted has quadrupled (from 25 to 100 gigatons) while GDP increased 12-fold.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 2/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

the uh what technology does is it creates economic value so you can accelerate economic value more than you accelerate the quantity of consumption of materials and energy we've been doing that for hundreds of years so you get more dollars for Less input of other materials or energy that's been going on for a long time it will continue but that's not a physical decoupling...the physical quantities of materials we went from 25 gigatons of materials consumed globally to 100 gigatons of all materials but the GDP of the world so that's a four-fold increase in physical stuff the GDP of world over that time went up more than 12-fold so you have a decoupling in that sense but people think that means using less it's less per dollar it's beyond obvious a different thing

0.74

Lithium chemistry was invented by Exxon chemists in the mid-1970s but not commercialized until nearly 20 years later by Sony in the early 1990s, and only reached scale production with the Tesla S in 2009—20+ years after commercial introduction—demonstrating that industrial-scale battery technology cycles take decades, not years.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 1/4durability 4/4· Simon Michaux

the lithium chemistry was discovered invented if you like in the mid-1970s you may all know this by Exxon chemist and was commercialized until by Sony until almost 20 years later in the early 1990s and of course famously it became possible as economies of scale and Manufacturing expertise improved almost 20 years later with the emergence of the first Tesla S sedan 2009 if I recall correctly so this is a very long cycle from new chemistry to at scale new classes of industrial batteries

0.74

The speaker questions why EVs were not adopted universally in the 100 years since EV trucks were driving around Norway if they were truly cleaner, responding that engineers knew batteries were not cleaner but different—a trade-off, just as all engineering involves trade-offs without perfect solutions.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 1/4durability 4/4· Simon Michaux

curiously we had trucks EV trucks driving around Norway 100 years ago...well first because they uh Engineers knew that the batteries weren't cleaner they were different from the very beginning

0.74

Energy is functionally infinite in the universe; the challenge for humanity has always been designing machines that extract energy and convert it into useful forms at a price we can afford, and price includes economic, social, environmental, and geopolitical costs that all distill to money.

definitionhigh valueestablishednovelty 1/4durability 4/4· Unidentified Speaker — Mark Mills: The energy transition delusion: inescapable min… [sgOEGKDVvsg]

there is no shortage of energy energy is not in short supply in the physics of the universe we live in energy is in fact an infinite supply energy for functional purposes all forms of energy are functionally in infinite Supply the challenge for Humanity has always been in figuring out how the systems work in nature designing machines that can extract Nature's natural energy sources and convert it into forms that are useful for humans at a price we can afford and price is principally economic but price also includes social environmental and geopolitical features these are all costs but they all distill ultimately to money

0.73

Norway achieved 80% EV penetration in new car sales last year and sources 90% of its electricity from renewables, while being 700% wealthier than the world average and exporting approximately $25,000 per capita in oil and gas sales—making it the model the global energy transition aspires to replicate.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 1/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

Norway last year is I'm sure you all know had the uh the record in the world 80 percent of all new cars were electric that were purchased here a Norway gets uh 90 of electricity from Renewables against half of its primary energy from Renewables...Norway also enjoys the benefit of exporting uh in dollar terms uh something on the order of twenty five thousand dollars per capita of oil and gas sales to the world

0.73

China has become the world's largest refiner of energy minerals (not extractor), commanding a market share in global energy minerals refining more than double OPEC's share in oil markets—a deliberate 20-year strategy announced in China's 10-year plans that has profound geopolitical and economic implications.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 2/4durability 4/4· Simon Michaux

China is not the world's biggest minor they are the biggest refiner and when you measured in energy minerals terms again this is iea data China's share of refining...China has chosen to become the world's energy minerals refiner this was not a secret policy they announced it 20 years ago they announced it in their 10-year plan 10 years ago and today China enjoys a market share in global energy minerals refining that is more than double opec's market share in oil markets

0.71

Different battery chemistries (lithium iron phosphate, lithium manganese phosphate, etc.) can be substituted without material difference at the high-level abstraction; typical EV batteries weigh about half a ton and require approximately 250 tons of mined materials regardless of chemistry, so hopes for 'magic batteries' that solve material constraints are misplaced.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 2/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

a typical electric vehicle battery with a without regard to the chemistry it uses weighs about half a Time requires about 250 tons of materials to be mined somewhere on the planet to make that battery it doesn't matter what classic chemicals you use and the idea that we will fix this problem by having new magic batteries batteries that are profoundly better than the batteries are using today is not a bad not a bad response that technology does get better

0.71

Energy transition machines (batteries, solar arrays, wind turbines, EVs) require 1,000-2,000% more minerals per unit of power than combustion turbines, and 400% more metals and minerals per EV compared to conventional vehicles—understating the actual requirement because wind/solar produce less energy per dollar than hydro.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 2/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

to build a machine to replace combustion turbines uh what this shows you is that you need between one thousand and two thousand percent more minerals to deliver the same unit of power and you need some on the order 400 percent more minerals and metals to deliver the same vehicle so an electric vehicle requires 400 percent more metals and minerals to build it compared to a conventional uh car

0.71

An International Monetary Fund analysis concluded that energy transition plans will cause all major metals to reach historic price levels for an unprecedented length of time, with inflationary effects lasting approximately one decade as demand pressures overwhelm production capacity.

factualhigh valuecontestednovelty 2/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

they've looked at a century of trailing data on Supply demand metrics for metals and they point out that the energy transition plans will put pressure on metals that will cause all metals to reach historic price levels for an unprecedented length of time they think it for about a decade so Metals then go from being just uh volatile and short time frames with being volatile over a much higher price space

0.69

It takes an average of 16 years globally to find and open a new mine, meaning that if investment were authorized today, the first new mines required for the transition would not begin production for 16 years—long after transition aspirations have kicked in.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 1/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

the average is about 16 years to find and open a new mine globally if you think about this in very simple terms that means that if we tomorrow started investing net the necessary amount of capital and exploration efforts it'll be 16 years before the first mines that we need will be open

0.69

Global absolute energy demand has increased year-on-year for 50-70 years with virtually no periods of sustained absolute decline; periods of demand reduction have 'evaporated' and the world needs more energy every year, meaning demand for energy minerals and materials will increase, not decrease, for the foreseeable future.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 1/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

the most important takeaway from this this trend line in the world is below the axis the periods of time and the frequency and the depth of declines in absolute demand for energy have evaporated the world needs more energy every year and there are very few periods in modern history for the last 50 to 70 years but there's been any absolute decrease in energy demand year on year

0.69

Over one century of IEA energy demand data shows that the absolute rate of percentage increase in world energy demand is declining, but it's declining over a much larger base; the percentage increases on larger numbers require more absolute energy input than percentage increases on small numbers.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 1/4durability 3/4· Unidentified Speaker — Mark Mills: The energy transition delusion: inescapable min… [sgOEGKDVvsg]

this over one century of data again this is iea data of the year on year change in energy demand for the world now what what you can see is that the absolute percentage rate increase is declining but it's declining over a larger base so you all know what that means in investment terms 10 percent of the big number is much more than 20 on a small number so the percentage increases [36:11] are decline but they're on a much bigger base

0.68

Every EV purchased in Norway has consumed 20-30 barrels of oil equivalent of energy in its manufacturing before it ever drives, with fully half of that energy content being oil and the rest almost entirely coal and natural gas—embodying hydrocarbons, not replacing them.

factualhigh valuecontestednovelty 2/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

every Norwegian that buys an electric vehicle has essentially purchased 20 to 30 barrels of oil equivalent of energy being consumed somewhere else and fully half of that energy content in fact is oil and the rest is almost entirely coal in natural gas so the single EV that is purchased in Norway and when it goes on the roads before it's seen its first electron move into its batteries has already consumed at least 25 barrels of oil equivalent of energy in hydrocarbons

0.68

The Electric Power Research Institute concluded that it is not structurally possible to make the energy transition in the way currently imagined, focusing on structural engineering issues rather than cost—yet typical responses advocate spending more money, which cannot solve structural problems.

factualhigh valuecontestednovelty 2/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

I show you uh the conclusion from a very recent Electric Power Research Institute study which is a non-profit research group in the United States for the electric industry that looked at the structural issues with respect to the transition not the cost issues but the structural issues and reach reach the conclusion [7:21] that it doesn't look like it's structurally possible to make the transition in the way imagined the typical response to that is we should spend more money and try harder

0.68

The internal combustion engine prevailed historically not because it was universally better but because it offered superior performance for the specific use cases that mattered; the speaker expects EVs will eventually reach 20-30% of the light-duty vehicle fleet, a 30x growth from 1%, yet this would impact global oil demand by only 2 percentage points.

forecasthigh valuecontestednovelty 2/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

the reason the internal combustion engine won is because it's better not because it's better everywhere and all the time...I think that we'll probably see a world or something on the order and I'll pick a number based on my research but let's just say 20 or 30 percent of all light duty Vehicles will be electric at some point roughly speaking which would be quite remarkable would be a massive growth than where we are of on the road one percent of all light duty vehicles are electric so that'd be a massive growth but it would impact Global oil Demand by about two percentage points

0.66

Copper has no substitute for electrical purposes in EVs and most other energy transition applications, only aluminum can substitute for copper in high-voltage long-distance transmission lines, making copper a binding constraint on the transition.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 1/4durability 4/4· Simon Michaux

the copper is not as it turns out it's one of the metals it's not does not have a substitute it's not replaceable the only place copper for electrical purposes has a substitute is aluminum for high dis high voltage long distance transmission transmission lines it does not for electric vehicles

0.66

Over all of history, the ore grade (percentage of rock containing desired metal) for higher-value metals like copper, nickel, molybdenum, and magnesium has been declining; typical copper ore grades are 1%, meaning mining 1 ton of ore yields only 20 pounds of copper plus tons of overburden rock.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 1/4durability 4/4· Unidentified Speaker — Mark Mills: The energy transition delusion: inescapable min… [sgOEGKDVvsg]

the grade of ore that we mined has been declining and especially for the the higher value metals like copper not iron ore as much but copper and nickel and molybdenum and magnesium and the orgrade I mean I assume you know what our grade is our grade is the [32:36] percentage of the rock that you're mining that contains the thing you want so copper or grades are typically one percent that arithmetically means that you have to dig up a ton of ore to get to 20 pounds of copper and that doesn't count the tons of rock overburden that are in the way of the ore that you want to get to so you dig up tons of material to get to pounds of metal uh that has relevance that has relevance and cost that has relevance in environmental sense it also has to the point I made earlier at his relevance [33:06] the carbon dioxide emissions and the energy consumed

0.64

Global wind and solar currently supply only 3% of world total energy, which is one-third as much energy as the world gets from burning wood—the oldest energy source still providing 350% more energy globally than all wind turbines and solar arrays combined.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 1/4durability 2/4· Simon Michaux

the world today gets about three percent of its total energy Supply from wind and solar the preferred sources of energy in the energy transition...that's one-third as much energy as the world gets from burning wood the oldest source of energy other than uh muscle uh on the in the history of the human race still provides 350 percent more energy to the world than all the worlds wind turbines and solar arrays combined

0.64

Global capital spending on the green transition is currently approximately $800 billion per year in direct spending, but real numbers are higher because government mandates on utilities and energy companies create real economic costs that don't show up in direct spending figures.

factualhigh valueestablishednovelty 1/4durability 2/4· Unidentified Speaker — Mark Mills: The energy transition delusion: inescapable min… [sgOEGKDVvsg]

this total Capital spending this is iea data in the green transition is on a tear to say the least I mean we're spending now something in our order of 800 billion dollars a year direct money and I dare say that the real numbers are higher because mandates have uh have a real cost to the economy mandates that is all over the Western World governments are requiring utilities and energy companies to make transitions that don't show up in direct spending but they show up in the real costs of the economy

0.63

The world is not currently mining enough materials nor planning to mine enough materials to support the energy transition; using copper as an example, existing mines plus all announced expansion plans will leave the world short of copper within one or two years.

factualhigh valuecontestednovelty 2/4durability 2/4· Simon Michaux

the world is not now mining enough materials nor is it planning to mine enough materials...the world will be short copper in a year or two that they'll be physically less copper available in the world than the demands of the energy transition will place on it

0.60

All machines wear out due to entropy (the most enduring law of physics), meaning continuous replacement is necessary; this applies to batteries, solar arrays, combustion turbines, and cars, creating perpetual need for new materials and mining.

causalhigh valueestablishednovelty 0/4durability 4/4· Unidentified Speaker — Mark Mills: The energy transition delusion: inescapable min… [sgOEGKDVvsg]

all machines wear out it's the nature of the universe we're in probably the most enduring law of physics entropy we age things wear out this is true of all machines so batteries of solar arrays combustion turbines and cars so the wearing-up process means that you're always in this sort of sician Battle of building new machines finding new materials

0.56

Demand for energy was nonexistent before technological invention: no demand for aviation energy existed until the airplane was invented, no demand for automotive energy until cars, and no demand for computing energy until computers; similarly, cloud computing and AI will generate new energy demands equal to existing computing energy, and robots/drones will consume enormous amounts of energy—inventors create demand, engineers deploy it.

factualhigh valuespeaker onlynovelty 2/4durability 4/4· Simon Michaux

there was no demand for energy for flying until the invention of the airplane there was no no demand for energy for cars so they mentioned of the car there's no demand for energy to make computers work until the invention of the computer and the proliferation of computing Global Computing today uses more energy than Global Aviation and the idea that we won't invent new reasons to consume energy in the future is not just naive it's not true so to give you just two examples the cloud is a phenomenology different than the internet subject for a whole a whole other a whole other speech but the net increase in demand to operate the infrastructure of the cloud is likely to increase the net increase in energy demand equal to what's already happened in Computing which is to put in an oil term something on the order four billion barrels of oil equivalent of net new energy demand to fuel Siri and the cloud so to speak not Siri in our as our host and similarly for robots and drones

0.52

The speaker worked as an interim CEO of a lithium battery company and learned extensively about physical supply chain problems in the battery industry; Edison's famous quote that 'there are liars and then there are battery salesmen' reflects the reality that early battery engineers knew lithium batteries were not cleaner, just different from combustion engines.

factualhigh valuespeaker onlynovelty 2/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

I ran out of lithium battery company for a while uh as an interim CEO so I learned I learned more than I really wanted to ever learn about the physical supply chain and the suppliers and the problems in the battery industry...there are liars and then they're a battery salesman...they're not cleaner they're different

0.52

When asked how decoupling of emissions from economic value creation fits with the speaker's belief that energy transition is delusional, the speaker clarifies that his objection is to the framing of 'transition' (which implies replacement) rather than to the concept of 'decoupling' (efficiency improvements per unit GDP).

normativehigh valuespeaker onlynovelty 2/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

I must I was surprised when when we had our first conversation and how adamant you are that there is no such thing as an energy transition so I'd have to try to challenge you a bit on it...so the uh what technology does is it creates economic value so you can accelerate economic value more than you accelerate the quantity of consumption of materials and energy

0.48

The future energy sector will be complex and will be dominated by stock-pickers rather than momentum traders, because understanding the mineral and mining constraints, geopolitical dynamics, inflation pressures, and technological trajectories requires deep analysis rather than trend-following.

normativehigh valuespeaker onlynovelty 1/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

this will be the domain of stock Pickers not momentum traders in the future because this looks like a very complicated future for the energy supplies of the world

0.48

The speaker is a 'last optimist' (host of 'The Last Optimist' podcast) and remains optimistic about human technological capability, which is wired into human nature; humans have always invented ways to overcome nature's constraints and make life easier.

factualhigh valuespeaker onlynovelty 1/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

I'm the last one um first we're humans we're very good at technology human beings are wired to do technology that's what we've been inventing ways around keeping nature from killing us and ways to make life easier for for all of human history

0.48

New mining technologies exist that can compress mining timelines and make extraction faster and safer (removing dangerous labor), though these are not yet widely deployed at scale; the speaker is moderately optimistic that technological improvements can accelerate mining development, but less optimistic about political patience for long timescales.

factualhigh valuespeaker onlynovelty 1/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

we can compress the time needed to open new minds we will find ways to we already we already know technologically we can we can find minerals faster we can mine faster we can take uh dangerous labor out of mining for example so I know all these things are possible that weren't possible just 20 years ago so I'm very optimistic that we'll achieve many of the goals we want I'm just maybe a slightly less optimistic that will develop the political patience for how long it will actually take

0.47

The speaker's book 'The Cloud Revolution' argues that humanity is at a pivot in technological history (comparable to the 1920s) where convergence of information, materials science, and machine revolutions promises unprecedented economic boom over 50 years, but this will require more energy and more diversified energy forms, not less.

factualhigh valuespeaker onlynovelty 2/4durability 3/4· Simon Michaux

my book up called the cloud Revolution is about the it's about energies in the book but about the broad technology trends that are underway in the world today I I'm convinced and I try to prove in my book that we're we are at a pivot in history we aren't had an energy pivot in history we are a technological pivot in history not unlike the one of the 1920s where the the magnitude of Nature and convergence of Technology revolutions across the domains of information Material Science and machines promises economic boom really unprecedented in history over the coming 50 years I think it's really quite encouraging quite remarkable but it will require more energy and more Diversified forms of energy

0.47

Mineral mining is predominantly located in sub-Saharan Africa, South America, and Asian nations rather than Europe or North America; while trade is beneficial, the world should not be naive about the social, environmental, political, and economic challenges in expanding mining in these regions.

normativehigh valuespeaker onlynovelty 2/4durability 3/4· Unidentified Speaker — Mark Mills: The energy transition delusion: inescapable min… [sgOEGKDVvsg]

the mining is elsewhere it's uh it's not largely in Europe the expansions are not in North America largely they're in sub-Saharan Africa and they're in South South America and the Asian Nations um I I happen to like trade I mean this may be an artifact of being from a country with like Norway smallest numbers of people on large quantities of resources so I'm I'm pro-trade I'm a trade Bowl I think the world should do these things but I think the world should not be naive about both the social and environmental problems that [21:13] occur as we expand mining in these parts of the world nor the political and economic challenges in the geopolitics

0.46

The cost of minerals to produce a single EV (aluminum, steel, nickel, cobalt) was approximately $4,000 before metal price inflation, and has doubled to about $8,000, driven primarily by steel increases; aluminum, copper, and nickel costs are not expected to relax.

factualhigh valuecontestednovelty 1/4durability 1/4· Unidentified Speaker — Mark Mills: The energy transition delusion: inescapable min… [sgOEGKDVvsg]

it was around four [26:58] thousand dollars before metal price inflation really started to kick in and it doubled to about eight thousand dollars a lot of that was uh steel double a steel increase the Steel part why fake May relax but the aluminum copper nickel those parts are not going to relax uh you might have in your head what what does this picture look like for a conventional vehicle uh you want one can have exactly the same graph the input cost for the metals are less than half for a conventional vehicle

0.45

Scaling from 3% to 10% wind/solar penetration globally would represent a 300% increase in energy supply and would be quite a remarkable accomplishment, indicating that transitions are slow and difficult and expensive.

causalhigh valuespeaker onlynovelty 1/4durability 2/4· Unidentified Speaker — Mark Mills: The energy transition delusion: inescapable min… [sgOEGKDVvsg]

the transition is really about the future and the scale to go from three percent let's say to 10 percent of world's energy from wind solar and batteries uh isn't also not a transition but it would be quite a remarkable accomplishment if you think about the state of the spending in the state of where the world is today a 300 percent increase in a very short time period and capital spending and physical infrastructure is quite quite remarkable

0.45

The 2-5 year midterm underinvestment in all energy markets translates into bullish price impacts on energy commodities for a very long time, with duration determined more by politics than engineering capabilities.

forecasthigh valuespeaker onlynovelty 1/4durability 2/4· Unidentified Speaker — Mark Mills: The energy transition delusion: inescapable min… [sgOEGKDVvsg]

we're short we're short on uh midterm investment that is the the two to five year time frame in all energy markets which translates into a pretty bullish uh price impacts and energy commodities for [41:53] I I suspect for a very long time uh unfortunately how long it lasts will be political not not it will relate more to politics than it will too that it will relate to what Engineers can accomplish

0.45

The Volkswagen study's diesel baseline is fixed by diesel chemistry but will not change; the EV carbon line will change based on grid carbon intensity, but larger modern batteries than modeled in the study mean actual manufacturing emissions are ~25 tons for typical Norwegian-driven EVs.

factualhigh valuespeaker onlynovelty 1/4durability 2/4· Unidentified Speaker — Mark Mills: The energy transition delusion: inescapable min… [sgOEGKDVvsg]

the problem with this graph by the way is that the the diesel line is fixed based on the physical chemistry of diesel and is it changing the electric line will change this is a small battery this battery and this model is half the size of the battery that 90 of Norwegians drive this is the battery that's in a typical Tesla or a typical byd is twice as big as this model which put differently means if you put your [30:02] finger on where the CO2 emissions are to deliver that electric vehicle to Norway it's more like 25 tons now Norway on a hydroelectric grid that means that you do end up saving our missions over the life of the vehicle but not that much

0.20

The speaker was introduced as having been named a leading star under 30 by a publication (possibly Dargan Snellings), and is from the 'hometown of Alum' (possibly Aalborg or similar), and is an 'ESD specialist'—though these details are unclear in the transcript.

factualspeaker onlynovelty 0/4durability 3/4· Unknown Questioner

he's been named a leading star under 30 by dargan snellings leave the newspaper and he's from the hometown of alingbro to Alum please welcome Sandra Miguel