What this covers
Whole Foods founder John Mackey reveals the dramatic story of survival after a devastating flood bankrupted his store just months after opening.
Learn how suppliers saved the company, why he faced four coup attempts, and the inside story of the Amazon acquisition that shocked the business world. A masterclass in entrepreneurship from one of retail's greatest founders.
00:00 Introduction 00:48 From Safer Way to Whole Foods: The Early Days 03:46 The Struggles and Successes of Whole Foods 05:22 Navigating Criticism and Market Realities 08:36 The Lamar Location and the 100-Year Flood 10:46 Rebuilding and Realizing Stakeholder Value 14:57 Learning the Retail Ropes 22:35 Growth, Challenges, and Entrepreneurial Resilience 35:51 Acquisitions and Expanding the Whole Foods Empire 41:17 The Drive to Build a Chain 42:17 Founder-Led vs. Professional Management 44:38 Challenges of Bureaucracy 46:56 The Importance of Cost Control 50:44 Entrepreneurial Spirit and Creativity 52:56 Facing Leadership Challenges 01:02:57 The Amazon Merger 01:19:01 Capitalism vs. Socialism 01:26:27 The Illusion of Control in Socialism 01:27:44 The Kibbutz Experiment: Idealism vs. Reality 01:30:53 Capitalism: A Win-Win Game 01:32:04 The Power of Win-Win-Win Philosophy 01:34:28 A Personal Story: Winning Over Deborah 01:37:29 The Role of Business Planning 01:38:49 Qualities of Successful Entrepreneurs 01:49:12 The Hero's Journey: Advice for Young Entrepreneurs 01:51:05 Introducing Love Life: A Holistic Health Venture 01:57:18 The Importance of Whole Foods and Nutrition 02:08:09 Concluding Thoughts on Success and Happiness -- OUR FREE NEWSLETTER: https://fs.blog/newsletter/
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John Mackey argues that entrepreneurship driven by love, purpose, and stakeholder capitalism creates sustainable success and human flourishing, while demonstrating that idealism must be balanced with market realities to create lasting impact.
- Love and relationships are the ultimate measure of life success, not money, fame, or power; dying people regret failed relationships, not missed wealth
- Win-win-win stakeholder capitalism creates better outcomes than zero-sum competition because it builds trust, attracts talent, and creates enduring value across all constituencies
- Founders who stay true to their mission and values while remaining adaptable to market feedback build more durable, culturally coherent organizations than professional managers following strategic plans
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Business planning is a useful tool for thinking analytically about a business, but the tool should not become the master; some companies become slaves to their business plans, making bad decisions to stay on plan rather than adapting the plan when conditions change.
“I have mixed feelings about it I think that uh it's a useful tool but you need to always remember it's a tool and it's a useful tool because it's it's good to think about your business when you go when you're doing business planning you're going into a different frame of mind you're going into what I call an analytical frame of mind...but the tool shouldn't become the master some businesses become slaves to their business plan and it's like we're behind the plan now so what are we going to do differently to get us back on plan it's like well don't do something something stupid to try to get yourself back on plan because maybe your plan's wrong and so the tool is something to help you think about the business but it's the master if you start making business decisions to hit some stupid plan that you made change the damn plan”
Mackey had people on his team he trusted enough that they could tell him directly when his ideas were bad without him firing them or becoming defensive; he could back down and change his mind when his team took a unified stand against an idea, recognizing that 'the whole is smarter than me.'
“I also needed people to tell me when my ideas were full of and uh cuz sometimes they really were and I needed people that that I had a high enough trusting relationship with me and they trusted me enough they could come in and just say John this is not going to work and here's the reasons why it's not going to work we can't figure out how to make it work now every once in a while I would say I'll figure out how to make it work and go forward with it and figure it out but often times it's like you know you're right I can't figure out how to make this work we'll let it go but but how did you get to a position where you could do that most people don't allow their ego...and I think any good entrepreneur would will back down at times when that people they love and Trust are all telling them this is a mistake you got to listen to it we all have blind spots we all have blind spots”
People find it confusing to get nutrition information from the internet because conflicting advice is available for any position ('is coffee good for me?'), but the solution is education emphasizing that simple whole foods (vegetables, fruits, legumes, nuts) are superior to processed foods.
“I mean people are always asking me as a plant-based Guy where do you get your protein it's like in every food I eat protein's not scarce...and it's not that complicated people make it I mean I always tell people if you want to if you try to get your information from the internet you're gon to be confused...confirmation bias is so power powerful people just confirm what they want to believe”
Effective entrepreneurs build teams that complement their strengths and compensate for their weaknesses, not teams that are merely talented—a synergistic team is greater than the sum of its parts
“a good entrepreneur a good team Builder is going to be able to build a team that uh complement their strengths and compensates for their weaknesses that's a different thing than just being able to collect talent because um it's like a difference between like a good basketball team is one that not just has a lot of talent but it's a talent that can play well together where they they're synergistic and that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts”
Entrepreneurs are generally willing to say yes to ideas that professional managers would say no to because entrepreneurs approach decisions with 'let's try it and see what happens' while professionals are risk-averse about their careers; entrepreneurs are also more comfortable admitting mistakes and discontinuing failed initiatives rather than protecting their reputations.
“that's the job of the entrepreneur is to see things the professionals it would not see or the professionals are making a more calculated decision on uh is this good for my career or not or if this succeeds will it really help my career but if it fails will I end up getting fired um the entrepreneur is just going to they're going to take a more of a let's try it let's see what happens and if it works we'll give more money to it if it doesn't work we'll we'll we'll discontinue it”
Great entrepreneurs often have significant weaknesses that are corrected by team members; Mackey was not good at hiring because his strength (seeing people's potential) created a blindness to their weaknesses, which he overcame by relying on his CFO Glendon Flanigan to identify people with character flaws or trustworthiness issues he couldn't see.
“I was um I was never very good at hiring and that's because I think my people's weaknesses come out of their strengths one of my strengths was I see people's potential I see what I see the very best in them and by the way when you do that people want to perform to a very high level of you because they don't want to let you down and so I could see their potential and but the downside the shadow side of that you might say is that often times didn't see their weaknesses that clearly so I've often times needed people on the team like I particularly worked really well with my Chief Financial Officer Glendon Flanigan because she always saw the downside in people and you know she could see the shadow when I was BL blind to it”
Organizations need both generative/creative people (like Mackey) and structural/organized people; the paradox is that you need creativity but also structure, generative people but also structural people—this tension must be balanced rather than resolved in one direction.
“you need both you need that's the that's the Paradox you do need creativity but you also need structure you need you need generative people and you need structural people I for example very generative I needed more structural people around me”
Sweden has universal school choice where students can attend any school they want, a policy fought against in the United States by progressives and teachers' unions
“school choice Sweden has Universal school choice students can go to any school they want to the students make the choices The parents and the students make the choices School choices bitterly fought against the United States by the by the well the progressives and the teachers unions Sweden's very Progressive country that's that's universalized school choice”
Over the past 250 years, capitalism has transformed global human welfare: 94% of people lived on less than $2/day 200 years ago vs. 6% today; average lifespan doubled from 30 to ~77-78 years; literacy went from 88% illiteracy to under 10%.
“200 years ago 94% of everyone alive on the planet lived on less than $2 a day and today's dollars 85% lived on less than $1 a day the average lifespan was a 30 oh by the way so let's give it today the um only 6% of the world's population lives on less than uh $2 a day it's gone from uh 94% to 6% in the last 250 years um the average lifespan 200 years ago was 30 now it's across the planet it's getting closer to 80 we've gone from it's about 77 I think it's 76 for men and 78 for women across the whole planet from 30 um ill literacy rates 200 years ago 88% of the people alive couldn't read now it's under 10%”
It is easy to be a critic but actually hard to be an entrepreneur; creating anything successfully that will meet the test of time is very difficult compared to finding fault with what others are doing.
“it's easy to be a Critic it's actually hard to be an entrepreneur it's hard to actually create anything it's really hard but basally anything that's going to be successful and meet the test of time but it's very easy to find fault with what other people are doing”
Whole Foods became profitable after the Safer Way period and grew by opening additional stores, which took a few years to become profitable; this pattern repeated throughout Whole Foods' expansion—new markets were slow initially because people didn't know the brand, but once brand awareness grew, stores began to take off.
“we became profitable safer way was this struggle and that's also an interesting story here we were struggling with safer we we relocate it to a better location make it bigger expand our product mix and we went from struggling business to hugely successful”
Diet is the second-most important health lever; 74% of Americans are overweight, 43% are obese, and most chronic diseases (heart disease, diabetes, autoimmune) are dietary in nature or heavily diet-influenced.
“but then I think diet though is very important I mean I was a grocer I do think um the diet that people eat in America today is you know I mean the statistics tell you all 74% of Americans are overweight 43% are obese um we're dying from diseases like heart disease that are dietary they're dietary diseases um obesity Auto a lot of the autoimmune diseases are also related to they're that's more complicated but diet is a huge factor in terms of how strong our immune systems are”
Whole Foods' aggregate nutrient density index (based on Joel Furhrman's work) ranks foods by nutrients per calorie; leafy greens are far the most nutrient-dense, followed by vegetables, then fruits, then beans, then whole grains.
“we called it it's based on Joel furman's work an aggregate nutritional density index so we were looking for nutrient density in foods you can get it get it you can get how many vitamins and minerals and and then the phytonutrients that foods have And We R rate all our food and we put up the ratings all around the store and you can get those you can get how many vitamins and minerals and and then the phytonutrients that foods have And We R rate all our food and we put up the ratings all around the store okay fresh vegetables particularly leafy greens are by far the most nutrient-dense food you can eat nutrients per calorie yeah I mean it's not even close and then all the vegetables are way up there then the fruits are under that then you've got um then you've got beans under that then you got whole grains um then you got nuts and seeds all the whole foods are much higher nutrient density then you get into the animal Foods”
The mechanistic food-as-fuel model most people inherit is false; food actually nourishes trillions of cells and directly impacts immune function, sickness frequency, and longevity, so proper nutrition leads to better health outcomes.
“I'd already thought my body is kind of like well you eat food to get fuel like a car used to get gasoline and I and that mechanistic model doesn't do credit to the fact that you actually need to nourish trillions of cells in your body with super healthy food if you do that you'll feel better immune system will be stronger you won't get sick as frequently and you'll live longer”
Humans evolved in scarcity and developed genes to crave calorie-dense foods (high fat, high sugar, high salt); this genetic predisposition is now maladaptive because modern food systems have optimized for calorie density, making obesity inevitable without discipline.
“the biggest challenge humans have with our diets is that we evolved our genes preclude us or our genes um we evolved in scarcity we evolved with with starvation was our biggest problem not for just the last few thousand years but for tens of thousands of years perhaps hundreds of thousands of years it just wasn't enough food and so we've evolved to Crave calorie dense foods and it's in our genetic structure and we like foods that have a lot of protein or have a lot of sugar or have a lot of fat oil pure fat nothing but fat sugar nothing but carbohydrate uh high concentrations of protein uh you people always put in protein powders and things like that in their smoothies We crave calorie density we also crave salt because it was scarce as we evolved and so as a result the food the food system today it gives the market what it wants it wants calorie density but it's killing us it's making us sick it's making us obese”
Whole Foods operated for most of its first decade with capital generated internally, not venture funding, and this bootstrapping allowed Mackey to maintain control and avoid the pressure to scale unsustainably
“my dad taught me was my mentor that the best Capital you have this is very different than the way people think about it today says the best Capital you'll ever have is the capital you make yourself and if you if you don't want to lose control of your business then make sure you're very profitable don't scale too quickly grow your business thoughtfully and painfully uh patiently keep your cost down and plow the money back in and that's how Whole Foods operated for the first many most first decade of Our Lives”
Entrepreneur success requires balancing idealism with market realities; businesses must 'meet the market where you find it, not where you'd like it to be,' which sometimes means compromising on initial ideals to achieve scale and impact
“the problem in that instance is that about half of 1% of Americans are vegan and 2% are vegetarian so you just don't have a big big for that big of a market and and another cliche which is true is you kind of have to meet the market where you find it not where you'd like it to be so the tension between your ideals and as long as we're into cliches I'll give you a third one which is the perfect is the enemy of the good if you just want to have your ideals you can have them but you may not have a business”
Mackey's primary advice to young entrepreneurs is to follow your heart, pursue your passion, don't do things just for safety and security, answer the inner calling you feel (the 'hero's journey'), and embrace life as a grand adventure rather than playing it safe—because life is short and there is no safety anyway.
“follow your heart life is shorter than you think it is it's too short to not be doing something that you really are passionate about that you're drawn to don't do something because you're just trying to get Safety and Security you probably won't be happy as you as you as you get older or you might have to change when you get older so I I always tell people young people like what do you really care about what are you passionate about go after that follow I I call it the hero's journey or you know I got that from U Joseph Campbell's the hero's journey but the hero's journey is one where you feel an inner calling an inner drive and you simply answer it you do it even though it's scary and you go off on your adventure you don't know how it's going to turn out”
Approximately 43 years before this interview (in May 1981), Austin was a much smaller, more neighborhood-based, and more unified community with different consciousness than it is today; progress and scale brings material benefits but also loses certain community-oriented qualities that existed in smaller cities.
“Austin back then was a much smaller city than it is today was a much more neighborhood based much more and and and it was just a different Consciousness back then it's it's a you know so as you make progress you also lose certain things”
Current healthcare is a disease management system, not preventative; it's good at infectious disease and acute care (antibiotics, surgery) but poor at chronic diseases (obesity, heart disease, diabetes, autoimmune) that kill most people.
“our medical system is now really a disease management system and it's not preventative it's not really dealing with lifestyle diseases it's our medical system is good if you have an infectious disease it's good in terms of things like vaccinations antibiotics surgery first aid but the chronic diseases that kill people obesity heart disease type 2 diabetes um uh autoimmune diseases cancer they're not very good at that they might manage that the symptoms of the disease but they don't really prevent it or reverse it”
Capitalism is fundamentally a win-win-win game because all participants (customers, employees, suppliers, investors) have choices and can exit if not served well; this competitive dynamic creates incentives for mutual benefit.
“capitalism is a win-win win-win game it's good for all the participants the people customers don't have to trade with the business if they don't like the prices or the service or the selection they can go down you don't like old foods you can go down to Trader Joe's and got Alternatives if you um uh if you don't like working for Whole Foods you don't have to there's plenty of other PE places you can go work at so Whole Foods has to do a good job or people won't stay working there uh if you don't do a good job with your customers they'll trade somewhere else um if you don't do a good job with your suppliers they don't have to trade with you they can they they can they can cut you off”
The Federal Trade Commission claimed Whole Foods was a monopoly despite holding less than 1% of the U.S. grocery business, because the FTC created a category of 'premium natural and organic food supermarkets' in which Whole Foods did have market dominance
“the Federal Trade Commission said Whole Foods was a monopoly and it's like you got to be kidding we got got less than 1% of the grocery business and they sort of made up this category that we were the we had were a monopoly of Premium natural and organic food supermarkets”
The kibbutz movement in Israel exemplifies socialism's failure even with idealistic founders; the first generation made sacrifices, but successive generations increasingly wanted private property and to raise their own children, until by the third generation the kibbutzes began to dissolve.
“take the Kuts in Israel which was such a well-intentioned socialistic movement and the people that founded it were socialist and it's what happens the the first generation was so idealistic and made all these sacrifices for the Kuts the second generation they're not quite as much into it they're more they they want to have more private possessions they're not willing they don't want their children raised by The Collector they want to raise their children themselves they want to have their own possessions so you might say that individualism starts to creep back in and by the third generation they don't even want to stay in the Kuts they want to get the hell out into the rest of the world”
Elon Musk exemplifies entrepreneurial courage through repeatedly putting 'all his chips in' and going all-in on ventures despite risking total loss multiple times, and surrounding himself with loyal friends willing to help during crises
“he was always willing to get up there like a a person who won a bunch of chips in a Boker game and he just put the whole pot he put it all in he could have lost everything multiple times and it was like that guy he the most courageous boldest entrepreneur I've ever seen he's a damn fool and you'd have to conclude Now by his tremendous success and wealth that he's just the most brilliant entrepreneur”
Whole Foods' IPO in 1992 was specifically chosen over additional venture capital rounds because accepting more VC money would have meant losing control of the company to VC investors who had indicated they would replace Mackey with a professional manager
“we actually wanted to go public because the VCS wanted another round of VC financing but that was going to give them control of the business and talking to my dad about it we said we don't want those guys to get control of the business first of all they first thing they were going to do is replace me and put in a professional manager which they were trying to do already”
Whole Foods never had to stop having an IPO or exit because Mackey led the company for 44 years, but he notes that most companies don't last that long after founder departure because professional management lacks the mission-driven orientation necessary to maintain founder values.
“what happened Happ s after the founders leave and retire that it's it's very difficult for a company to be anything but professionally you led at that point going after that that's one reason most companies don't last that long”
Retail success requires managing the tension between keeping produce fresh and keeping it in stock; overstocking leads to rot, understocking frustrates customers who leave for competitors.
“if you stock too much broccoli it's going to rot on the Shelf so you have to you have to develop the skills particularly in the grocery business where you have all these perishables to be able to keep your food fresh and in stock but turn it over fast enough uh but if you and so there's that there's that relationship where you want it fresh but you also don't you also don't want it to be out of stock”
Founder-led companies and professionally-managed companies differ fundamentally: founders love their business in a way professional managers don't because the business is like a child they raised; professional managers view it as a career stepping stone.
“nobody ever loves their business as much as a Founder does uh and I mean I led Whole Foods for 44 years I will always it's like it's like if you're a parent your child grows up I raise that child as best I can it's on its own now I can't tell Whole Foods what to do anymore and you just hope you put inculcated good values and that they have a happy life I will always love Whole Foods”
Professional managers often are not mission-driven, having come from top business schools (Harvard, Wharton, Stanford), where they are taught to work hard and are intelligent but view the company as a stepping stone for their career rather than as a commitment they will dedicate their life to.
“professional managers they're not I'm not saying they couldn't be but in my experience they're very they're not usually Mission driven they've gotten their their MBA from Harvard or Wharton or Stanford they're very intelligent they work hard but working in Whole Foods or Amazon it's just uh it's just part of their career path they want to put it on their resume and then they want to use that to leverage to get the next promotion maybe at another company it's a stepping stone”
Socialism appeals perpetually to young people because they are born into a world that has already benefited from capitalism (less racism, better living conditions, more freedom) and don't perceive the comparative improvements, leading them to idealize a utopian alternative.
“that's why socialism still holds such an attraction particularly for young people is they're they're born and they see they don't see racism the way I see it in the context of what it was like in the United States 200 years ago or 170 years ago or even when I was a little boy growing up in Houston Texas and they had Jim Crow loss they had racial segregation was legal there's so much less racism today than there was in any in fact we're the Le least racist we've ever been um there's always going to be inequality but there's no more inequality today than there was at the founding of our Republic”
Warren Buffett is a good example of someone with a positive attitude and good health despite a poor diet (high sugar, junk food), because his overall optimistic outlook and lack of toxic behaviors (no smoking, no heavy drinking) support health.
“I know people that eat terrible diets that have very positive attitudes that are remarkably healthy even though they you know they should be falling apart it's just that they're War Buffett he's well you know it's Warren Buffett is a good example because he a terrible diet on the other hand he's got a great positive attitude but he also doesn't take any toxins in other than his diet he's not a smoker he doesn't drink he actually he eats uh he he h he does he's not taking a lot of the things that that wreck our health sooner than than necessary uh but yes I think Warren has an incredibly positive attitude”
Nordic countries (Sweden, etc.) are not actually socialist; they rank in the top 25 most economically free countries globally, have low corporate taxes (~20%), universal school choice, and high personal autonomy—they combine capitalism with generous welfare, not socialism.
“all the Nordic countries are in the top 25 in the entire world and three of those five are ahead of the United States in economic freedom well what about Sweden it's like well freeden Sweden's my favorite example because when I talk about when you talk about Sweden it's like okay well let's look at what Sweden does did they locked down during covid they didn't no they didn't they stayed open... Sweden's economic freedom index is lower than the United States there I think the United States is now up to about like 18 Sweden's like number 15 or 16 um corporate tax rates in Sweden are like 20%”
A policy solution would be to tax short-term capital gains (less than 1 year) at high rates (50-60%) and long-term gains (10+ years) at near-zero rates, creating incentives for longer holding periods and constructive shareholder engagement.
“there's Pretty Simple Solutions to it you we need to make a distinction in tax policy right now A short-term capital gain is anything less than one year what I'd love to see is that if you held something for say 10 years maybe your taxes capital gains taxes went down to close to zero and if you sold it in less than a year maybe they'd be much higher maybe it'd be 50 or 60% so that You'd create these incentives to hold longer and that would make a shareholder activist at least have to hold the stock for a couple of years so they they'd have less lower gains”
Economic freedom has existed only since the late 18th century; for all of previous history, humans lived under the thumb of others; the 'genie got out of the bottle' through capitalism and creates progress, while intellectuals and politicians constantly try to put it back.
“it's never been done before human the economic freedom has always been under the thumb of other people throughout all history until the late 18th century when Freedom broke through and this great upward lifted Prosperity the genie got out of the bottle and they've been trying to intellectuals and people have been trying to cram that Genie back in the bottle ever since they haven't able to do it yet but if they ever do then we're going to see progress from screeching to a halt and begin to go in reverse”
Whole Foods Market became the highest-volume natural food store in the entire United States within six months of opening the first location at Lamar, despite being built in a 100-year flood zone.
“that became immensely successful and we and we sold meat we sold alcohol we sold coffee and we were still featuring natural organic foods but we were also now a more uh a grocery store that more people could identify with particularly Our Generation Um which was a kind of a counterculture long hair hippie generation that was looking to reinvent the world starting with one of the first places to reinvent was food and so uh that store was immensely successful that was the Lamar location yes it was in fact within six months it became the highest volume natural food store in the entire United States”
Venture capitalists characterize their involvement as temporary and goal-oriented—they want to drive the company to exit (sale or IPO) and then move on, which means their interests and the founder's interests eventually diverge
“I call the VCS um I call them hit trikers with credit cards and but what I mean by that is that uh they're getting into your car and as long as you take them where they want to get to which is an exit uh which either has to be a sale or an IPO and we didn't want to sell the business we wanted to we wanted to grow it ourselves and so we always had the IPO the initial public office offering was in the back of her minds”
Pure laissez-faire capitalism would result in organized crime and violence; some regulation is necessary to prevent violent people from overwhelming competitors; the ideal involves freedom with appropriate regulation.
“if you just have complete lazy Fair capitalism you end up with the mafia you have to have somebody that keeps the the violent people from beating up the ones who are their competitors so there is no perfect solution to we we have to muddle along with freedom and some regulations and do the best that we can but it's going to be capitalism”
Short-term shareholders (holding less than one year) receive the same treatment in law as long-term shareholders; this is a flaw in the US system that encourages activist short-term thinking rather than long-term business building.
“I'm not opposed to shareholder activist trying to help you know help companies in constructive ways to become more successful and profitable but I think it's a flaw in the current in the United States flaw in our system because we treat short-term shareholders with the same type of respect that you treat long-term shareholders I think that long-term shareholders that are really making long-term bets on the business and lets the team execute over the long term that's really what you need when you have short-term people that are that are just trying to make a a pop to the to the stock price in a short period of time which are what shareholder actors are trying to do get a sale um I don't think that's good for the economy”
Doctors receive almost no nutritional education (e.g., 30 minutes in medical school); they come to believe drugs rather than nutrition are the path to health, which limits their ability to advise patients on prevention.
“it'd probably want to change I'd want to make nutrition education more something that would be emphasized in the schools and emphasized in particularly in the medical schools because they're not given doctors are given almost no nutritional they don't they they come to believe that it does anything to do with health that their potions and their Elixir their drugs are the thing that will restore health and that's not right it's not true I I think I heard a couple weeks ago that the average med school student gets 30 minutes on nutrition or something yeah it's pretty low not much”
A 100-year flood occurred nine months after the Lamar store opened in 1980, destroying inventory and threatening the business; the community (customers, suppliers, employees, and a banker) supported recovery, teaching Mackey about stakeholder relationships.
“nine months after we opened up that really successful store the whole first Whole Foods Market in 1980 um when we were building it the owner of the building uh this Texas good old boy named Ben pal he let me know that this we were building it in the hundred-year flood zone”
Modern dating apps fundamentally change relationship dynamics because rejection no longer creates the motivation for vulnerable connection—if one person rejects you, you have many other options immediately available, whereas historically scarcity of romantic options required deeper engagement with the person in front of you.
“you might have done the same right she might have done the same more likely she would have but you know that was a blind date and uh it was hard it was harder to meet people back in the day you couldn't just have an app and and uh uh I thought I was being very clever at the time I asked my married friends if they were single is there anybody they'd like to be going out with because I wasn't going to get any tips from my single friends”
Steve Jobs set hiring standards of only bringing on 'A-listers' because he believed that hiring B-listers leads to C-lister hires, creating a decline in organizational talent quality
“Steve Jobs used to say that he would only hire a-listers because he says if you hire b listers b listers will hire c-listers so he had these high standards of performance and he wouldn't sacrifice those high standards”
Whole Foods made 23 acquisitions with only 1 failure; the failure (Attman, a mail-order supplement company) occurred because it was outside Whole Foods' core retail expertise and the market didn't adopt the internet as expected.
“I did 23 what have you and you only had one one that went bad I think yeah and it was not and because it was uh not retail stores that was Amon it was um it was a mail order supplement company that we thought we could use that to springboard into the dot boom back in the late 90s and the problem was the people that bought supplements with a catalog they were slow adopters to the internet”
Whole Foods was pressured by shareholder activist Jana Partners who threatened a proxy fight; Jana presented a PowerPoint claiming mismanagement but refused to share it for fact-checking, saying they would take over the board, fire Mackey, and sell to highest bidder.
“when activist investors activated investors we've been attacked by lots of other activists over the years from animal rights activists to variety of different kind of activists but uh these were particularly shareholder activists they don't think the business is being managed to maximize shareholder value and so this particular group of activists was jna partners and they um we met with them soon after they took a position and to find out what you know if we could work together to try to create more value for the shareholders and they had this PowerPoint presentation and they they showed it to me and my leadership team and a couple of my directors and you know did there were some things in it that were were accurate and there were a lot of things were non accurate I asked them could I get a copy of that presentation that you're making because I'd like to address some of these concerns I don't think everything you put in there is accurate i' like to correct the record he says no you can't have it and I said well why not and he says well we don't want to listen John let me just tell you what's going to happen here let's cut to the chase we're going to take over Whole Foods here's how we're going to do it we're going to take over your board first after we do that we're going to fire you and any other management people that won't line up with us and then we're going to put this up for a bid and sell it to the highest bidder and there's not an effing thing you can do about it and walked out of the room”
Whole Foods was highly successful at the time of Jana's attack: highest sales per square foot of any public food retailer, 8% same-store sales growth over 30+ years, highly profitable; the company wasn't failing, but competition was catching up and price perception was being attacked.
“Whole Foods you know it's it's we weren't in people think we were like failing or in Decline and that was not true Whole Foods was actually incredibly successful we we had that at the time the activist investors invested in Whole Foods we had the highest sales per square foot of any public food retailer we'd had the same store sales growth of 8% over 30 plus year period by every we we almost every objective measurement holies was the most profitable food retailer uh grocery store operator out there”
Mackey met Jeff Bezos at a Microsoft CEO Summit the year before Jana's attack; they discussed shared interests (Lord of the Rings, Science Fiction/Fantasy, scuba diving), discussed Whole Foods' potential, and hit it off; this relationship made Mackey think 'What about Amazon?' when seeking alternatives.
“then one day I woke up right when I woke up the idea flashed in my mind what about Amazon that was a question what about Amazon and I had met Jeff the year before at this Microsoft CEO Summit and I hit it off with Jeff we we did a panel together um and he he was very interested in Whole Foods we talked about Whole Foods a lot he also was interested in Science Fiction and Fantasy and we'd read a lot of the same books like the Lord of the Rings and he was into scuba diving and I've been scuba diving a long time and dive it all over the world so we hit it off we we had a good rapport”
Venezuela is a case study of socialism's failure; it was one of South America's richest countries before Hugo Chavez came to power with vast oil reserves; socialist policies destroyed prosperity.
“Venezuela is a great example of what they one of the richest that was the richest country in South America before they before Chavez got in there and he had the richest oil reserves and they completely screwed it all up”
Whole Foods went public in 1992, eleven years after starting, which allowed investors who believed in the company to cash out and provided relief for Mackey personally
“when Whole Foods does its IPO 14 or in 1992 so 11 years later it was one of the happiest days of my life because finally all the investors that had believed in me and believed in our vision believed in Renee they could leave now they could they could cash out”
The Rule of 72 shows that 24% annual growth means doubling sales every 3 years, while 18% growth means doubling every 4 years, which is mathematically significant for understanding compounding effects
“the rule of 72 is if you take your growth rate and divide it into 72 that's how quickly you will double so let's say you're growing your sales at 24% a year then 24 into 72 is three so in three years you'll actually double your sales or if you're growing at 18% 18 into 72 is four so every four years you double your sales”
Over 90% of Americans have less fiber intake than is optimal for gut health, which is critical to immune system function
“we now know the gut is the first most important part of our immune system so that's Whole Foods Whole Foods are you know it's the definition is a little bit fuzzy so a little bit of processing is not too bad but the more you do the worse it tends to become and now we eat highly processed foods not just three times a day some people just eat and eat and eat all day long that's a really good way to look at it I think there's a a scale I uh I'm going to get this wrong but it came out from Brazil and it sort of did the one through four in terms of processing for what food was that's a good idea actually yeah and then that'd be great to put on labels at grocery stores or even on the um shelves people could see this is a three so it's better than a four but the the but you know what happens then is that those get gamed uh in the sense that the they've been TR there have been all kinds of rating systems that have tried to be applied but then the the food man manufacturing companies not only do they lobby but they they are they're constantly trying to change those rules so that their products look good um it's more complicated than you think because we tried to do something at Whole Foods we did we actually did it we called it it's based on Joel furman's work an aggregate nutritional density index so we were looking for nutrient density in foods you can get it get it you can get those you can get how many vitamins and minerals and and then the phytonutrients that foods have And We R rate all our food and we put up the ratings all around the store okay fresh vegetables particularly leafy greens are by far the most nutrient-dense food you can eat nutrients per calorie yeah I mean it's not even close and then all the vegetables are way up there then the fruits are under that then you've got um then you've got beans under that then you got whole grains um then you got nuts and seeds all the whole foods are much higher nutrient density then you get into the animal Foods this is what became controversial is that the animal Foods on a per calorie basis have fewer nutrients this was very upsetting to people and they got angry people at team members got angry about it people that want to eat a a paleo diet were angry the people that eat a Carnivor diet carnivore diet were angry because they really want they like their animal Foods they're calorie dense there's a lot of calories in animal Foods they taste good and uh but you're not telling people what to eat why is more information getting people Kill the Messenger man that's not that's not a new thing they didn't like the message we were delivering and because people knew that I was a plant-based guy they thought Mack's trying to make everybody eat his diet and all we were trying to do is give out the information of nutrient density per calorie it was important information”
Sweden has a corporate tax rate of approximately 20% compared to higher rates in the United States
“corporate tax rates in Sweden are like 20%”
Socialism has failed all 41 times it was tried over 120 years, starting with Russia (1917-18); it is 'a god that failed' and will always fail because it cannot work without coercion, violating human nature and freedom.
“There are 41 countries in the last 120 years 100 yeah with starting with Russia 1917 or 1918 that have tried soal soci ISM every one of them has failed all 41 have failed socialism has never worked and when people talk about what about the Nordic countries it's like they're not socialistic”
Entrepreneurs constantly face a wall of doubt from others who don't see possibilities yet; this criticism can be motivating if an entrepreneur has sufficient faith and confidence in their vision.
“Through The Years um I think entrepreneurs always are climbing a wall of Doubt because the entrepreneurs looking ahead they're seeing possibilities that other people don't see yet and so it's easy to be skeptical I I just for years I was told that this was never going to work I mean my mother was begging me on her deathbed to give up this stupid grocer dream”
As companies professionalize, they build larger legal, HR, and administrative departments with their own professional incentives; this bureaucratic expansion is difficult to manage and often requires arbitrary cuts (like 10% layoffs) rather than surgical decisions.
“as you acquired more wealth and power as you guys grew how did you stay so grounded um well of course other people might tell you that they didn't think I stayed that grounded so but I think I did stay pretty grounded... once the professionalism got in there I had trouble um controlling it I going to make sure it doesn't get a good fi hold into love life how did that show up was that sort of through cost expansion or was it sort of you hire people to try to do something you you're unable to do or you know you're like we need to hire somebody to work on that and then of course they can't do it by themselves so they have to build a team and what what's not happening it's sort of like the federal government they add new government departments on they don't ever they don't Sunset them they don't get R of them they just add new ones on well corporations have more of a profit they just can't operate indefinitely building up a deficit the way the federal our federal government can do so there is the shareholder push to keep control of the cost to be to be sure but it's hard to do it surgically”
The best way to control bureaucratic expansion is to be skilled at saying no and not building departments in the first place, rather than trying to cut them later; this requires constant vigilance even when profitable.
“the better way is not to build it up in the first place and that just means being skilled at saying no no we're not going to do that no and because there's always things that are nice to do and if when you're profitable and you have the resources to do it you start to add things on but you don't go do a good job of sunsetting them or getting R of them or just evaluating their cost Effectiveness”
Critics of Whole Foods' compromises (e.g., selling meat despite ethical vegetarianism) are usually not entrepreneurs themselves trying to build businesses, but rather people 'lobbing grenades from the safety of the sidelines'—critiquing without attempting to create alternative solutions.
“I've always noticed that most of the people actually all the people who criticize other people doing things they're usually not doing the same thing they're not trying to do the same thing they're not in the same space they're just sort of like lobbing grenades from the safety of the sidelines”
People operating from win-win-win frameworks can accomplish almost anything together; however, you must be conscious that not everyone shares this framework and some people will try to exploit you, so you need to be cautious while remaining open to genuine partners.
“part of the win-win-win is is knitting people together but you have to there are people that don't think win-win-win it's it's almost like you've got to be asking the question is the person I'm dealing with are they looking for a win for me too are they just looking to see how much they can get from me so you you need to have the attitude of win-win win but you also have to be conscious of people that are working from a different framework who might try to exploit you and you need to be more cautious around them”
SaferWay failed because it was ideologically pure (no meat, white sugar, alcohol, or coffee) and did not meet market demand; Mackey learned the principle 'meet the market where you find it, not where you'd like it to be.'
“we didn't sell meat we didn't sell white sugar we didn't even sell coffee and and it and and I was like to say we did very little business we were not meeting the market where we found it so to speak it was our own ideals”
Mackey stayed grounded despite wealth and success because he had an awareness of death from a young age, understood that money, fame, and power don't satisfy the soul, and maintained a focus on creating the next thing rather than accumulating status—he was inspired by Picasso's statement that his favorite painting was the one he's currently working on.
“as you acquired more wealth and power and fame as you guys grew how did you stay so grounded um well of course other people might tell you that they didn't think I stayed that grounded so but I think I did stay pretty grounded and I think it's because um you know I have this whole background in philosophy and you know my book is kind of about my own spiritual journey and I got really clear at a pretty young age like back in my existential days back when I was in my late 20s and then the psychedelics took it to another level I got really clear about death what I mean about that is that um we're all going to die”
Happy team members lead to happy customers which leads to a prosperous business which makes happy investors; this stakeholder interdependency creates synergies when managed with conscious awareness of all constituencies.
“if you really want good service to your customers make sure your team members are a well trained well motivated and that they are rewarded for serving the customers well that you have a high standard and then you meet because happy team members lead to happy customers happy customers lead to a prosperous business that makes happy investors”
Money, fame, and power are inherently corrupting to most people because they don't satisfy the soul—people actually want love, and past a certain point these things create diminishing returns and become burdens rather than sources of happiness
“the One Ring The Ring of Power it's a great metaphor because there are three things that I found are very corrupting for most people not everyone but most people could be corrupted by money Fame and power because what people want is love and they think those things will give them love if they have enough of them if you have enough money or power Fame but in fact those things do not satisfy the soul”
The Amazon deal closed within six weeks of the first meeting; every stakeholder won: customers got lower prices (dropped 4x in first two years), employees got raises (Amazon set $15 minimum wage within 30 days), suppliers saw increased sales, investors got 30% premium, governments got capital gains taxes, communities' philanthropic foundations were maintained and expanded.
“six weeks after that first meeting we had signed an agreement to get married to merge... when the deal got went through when I remember I was asking that question what's the win-win-win solution for all of our stakeholders the Amazon merger every one of our stakeholders benefited from that merger we really did drop our prices we dropped our prices four times significantly in the first two years of that merger I hardly ever hear the whole paycheck narrative any longer hope siling is expensive but I don't hear that narrative any longer because we're far more competitive price-wise than we used to be it cost Amazon hundreds of millions of dollars to invest that but they think long term they Jeff and his team think 10 15 20 years in the the future they're willing to make that investment they raised they raised our wages and every one of our hourly people Amazon decided we're going to this was back in 2017 within 30 days of the merger they they said we're going to raise the minimum starting wage at 15 bucks so that meant everybody got a got a raise because of people that were that it were at 1525 and you know that the Gap they they couldn't stay at 1525 they needed to go up too so pretty much every hourly person got a raise it was good for our suppliers that not only did Amazon not cut any our suppliers out but they studied our sales and they saw wow they picked up a ton of our suppliers and so they they uh that was good for them um it was good for our investors right they got about a 30% premium on the deal from what the stock had been before Jana got involved and then um it was good for our government they got a massive amount of capital gains taxes from from from the deal uh and good for our communities that we're part of because Amazon did not change our philanthropic uh that we had hopefully has three foundations not only did Amazon not tell us we had to stop doing those they contributed additional Monies to it”
Only about 0.5-2% of Americans are vegan or vegetarian, making a pure vegan market too small to sustain a grocery business; expanding product mix to include meat, alcohol, and coffee while maintaining natural/organic standards reached a much larger addressable market.
“the problem in that instance is that about half of 1% of Americans are vegan and 2% are vegetarian so you just don't have a big big for that big of a market”
Competitiveness is a core trait that drives Mackey forward; when people tell him something won't work, it triggers his competitive spirit making him more determined to prove them wrong rather than discouraged.
“when people would say what we were doing wasn't going to work it just made me more determined it's it's kind of like um you get a competitive Challenge from somebody you could see I was uh talking about about Aran we were off camera that I would love to be competing more aggressively with Aran if I was still the CEO but in because General I just um I love I love games I love play I love to to compete to me it's really fun”
Growth beyond 24-25% annually begins to dilute company culture as too many new people enter without being properly inculturated; Whole Foods found its optimal growth rate between 15-25% per year.
“I found that once our growth got above 20 24% do you know what the you know the rule of 72 yeah so for the listeners the rule of 72 is if you take your growth rate and divide it into 72 that's how quickly you will double... when we began to grow faster than 24 to 25% that our culture would began to get diluted and it was we couldn't um the culture can in in it can incorporate a certain level of growth before the culture itself begins to fray too many new people are coming in they're not getting indoctrinated or inculturated”
Whole Foods promoted from within and built a loyal, mission-driven culture early on; later, as the company grew and became famous, it began attracting people viewing it as a career move rather than a mission, and the culture began to shift.
“when we brought Professionals in we spent a lot of time making sure they were good cultural fits at least in the early days and later on um as we got bigger we be and more famous we began to attract people who really were looking in it as more of a career move um and not and they and we never could get them to buy in to the mission and I think what happened Happ s after the founders leave and retire that it's it's very difficult for a company to be anything but professionally you led at that point”
People are drawn to socialism despite repeated failure because individuals are uncomfortable without centralized control; they prefer perceived security of 'somebody's in control' over freedom, and they rationalize past failures as resulting from 'wrong leaders' rather than systemic problems.
“in a in a in a capitalistic Society uh where you have economic freedom and free markets no one's actually running things markets are self- adapting and correcting many people are very uncomfortable without they think somebody has to be in control of it all that and so they're they're willing to give up their economic and personal freedoms for the security of thinking somebody's in control someone's doing it um and they believe that despite all the other failures which by the way they're not aware of they they just can rationalize those failures away well that was Stalin or that was ma or that was Castro”
Customers, not convenience or price alone, represent the most important stakeholder because they always have choices; if a business doesn't serve them well on quality, price, service, or convenience, they will shop elsewhere.
“I learned that the most important stake holder is and always will be the customer that's number one stakeholder and and if a business doesn't realize that or forgets it um their business probably is going to suffer in the long run because people do your competitors are constantly innovating”
Whole Foods' competitive advantage came from doing a better job than competitors on produce and perishable quality, which sets the tone for customers' perception of the entire store.
“whole foods' competitive Advantage has always been I just thought we did a better job than just about anybody else out there in overall produce perishable quality and that gave us compe I gave us Competitive Edge why is produce the first part of the story you walk into because that sets the tone for the whole store”
One of the keys to success is seizing opportunities when they appear rather than hesitating; as the saying goes, 'he who hesitates is lost' because great opportunities don't come around often.
“one of the secrets to success in life and business you have to seize the opportunities when they're there if you don't see these great opportunities only come they don't come around every day and he who you know I he who hesitates lost if you not willing to seize that opportunity somebody else will”
People who are dying reflect on their deathbeds regretting failed relationships and love, not money, fame, or power; this universal pattern indicates love is life's most important element.
“everybody that gets to the and they're on their deathbed if you imagine you're on you're on your deathbed do you think you'll be thinking God I wish I'd made more money I wish I'd been richer I wish I'd been more famous wish I'd had more power now you're going to be thinking about I wish I'd told my son how much I loved him I wish I hadn't let that relationship go I wish I hadn't said those things you're regrets are always going to be about relationships and the ways that love failed in your life I mean if that that's the clearest indication that Love's the most important thing is because that's what happens when you're dying is you're looking back and you're thinking about the people that you loved”
Success, for Mackey, is a life well-lived that is true to oneself, true to one's values, true to one's beliefs, and full of love; not success measured by external metrics (money, status, power).
“you know I think success for me has been just being following my heart and being true to myself because doing following my Bliss as Joseph Campbell said I've tried to follow my Bliss and I've been very successful by my own internal measurements because I have been true to myself I have followed my heart and it's led to me this my life's been this Grand Adventure I'm a very happy person I I I have a lot of love in my life I have a lot of friends I can do what I want to do I meet cool people like you uh and and uh yeah to me that's a successful life is a life well- lived one that's true to yourself true to your own values true to your beliefs and has a lot of love in it um I wouldn't imagine a successful life that without that didn't have a lot of love in it”
Meeting Jeff Bezos at Bezos' boathouse next to his mansion on Lake Washington with security searching the car made Mackey realize he would never want to be so rich and famous that he couldn't live a normal anonymous life—this was a 'real wakeup call' that extreme wealth brings constraints to freedom.
“I would never want to be so rich and so famous and so powerful that I couldn't live a normal life that I didn't have any anonymity that was like a real wakeup call it's like I'm sure Jeff's one of the most envied people in the world but I would not want to have to live my life like that”
Capitalism is always compared against its failures while socialism is compared to its ideals—this is unfair comparison; both should be compared against reality or both against ideals.
“it's always going to be this you can always describe it as in this perfect terms capitalism is always compared against its failures and and socialism is always compared to its ideals and that's that's not a fair comparison you have to compare reality against reality or ideals against ideals because capitalism has Noble ideals as well”
Win-win-win thinking becomes an ethical system that can resolve almost any ethical question by asking: how do we all win? It ties people together through trust because when others know you're looking out for their benefit too, relationships deepen.
“I'll take it one further once you really can internalize win-win-win in your life and that's how you try to live you're always looking with every person you interact you're looking for a win-win-win good for you good for me good for all of us it really becomes an ethical system it's it pretty much can just only you can you can resolve any ethical question by always going back what's the win-win win here how do we all win it solves almost all ethical questions it's kind of a an ethical code in and of itself... when you're with somebody who's always looking out for you who's looking for a win for you too you trust them you your relationship deepens and and with trust there's so many more things you can do together”
Mackey wrote a heartfelt letter to his first-date love interest Deborah after a date didn't go well, opening up about who he was, apologizing without knowing exactly what went wrong, and expressing his appreciation for her despite the poor outcome
“in that letter uh I just kind of kind of like I've done in this podcast I just open myself up and I just said here's I don't know exactly what I did wrong but I know I did something wrong but here's who I am I got I really like you here's who I think you are uh I I realized that I kind of blew this date but it's okay even having one date with you was very special and I I think you're a very special person”
When considering the acquisition of Mrs. Gucci (a California natural foods chain), Mackey's father objected that he was overextended, but Mackey recognized this was a once-in-a-generation opportunity that wouldn't come again; he proceeded with the acquisition and left the management largely independent.
“when my dad was objecting to that that merger he was saying John you have your hands full with bread and circus which was still less than a year old you don't have the capacity to take on it on the opposite Coast you're just you're gonna you can't handle it it's you're going to delute your Talon down and he was right but as I kept pointing out it's like you're right but this opportunity is not going to come again this is the Crown Jewel natural food store chain on the west coast if we don't take them somebody else is we'll have to figure out how to do it and we did and we did acquire them and we did figure out how to do it mostly by leaving them alone”
Entrepreneurs should be careful about venture capital funding because VCs encourage rapid burn rates and scaling without profitability, leading to situations where subsequent investment rounds occur at lower valuations ('cram down rounds') that dilute founders' ownership
“I always tell young entrepreneurs a couple things one is they're going to tell you to to try to don't worry about your burn rate just grow grow grow and I said that's not in your best interest they say that because you they're the ones supplying the money and eventually if they need to they'll do a cram Down Round And basically take it do it at a much lower price and you'll have an opportunity to invest but you've long you've long exhausted your own funds to invest and you'll lose control of your business”
Attitude and sense of purpose are the most important health factors; a positive attitude and sense that you have important work to do is communicated to all cells, making the body 'want to stay alive.'
“I actually feel like first of all I think the most important thing is attitude I mean a positive attitude a sense of purpose and meaning it's like the body as long as the body feels like it has something it needs to do it stay it wants to stay alive it's like you can't dial to me now I got important work to do and that's communicated through all the cells”
Whole Foods' nutrient density rating system caused controversy because animal foods ranked lower per calorie than plant foods; people on paleo and carnivore diets became angry, thinking Mackey was trying to force veganism rather than just providing nutritional information.
“this is what became controversial is that the animal Foods on a per calorie basis have fewer nutrients this was very upsetting to people and they got angry people at team members got angry about it people that want to eat a a paleo diet were angry the people that eat a Carnivor diet carnivore diet were angry because they really want they like their animal Foods they're calorie dense there's a lot of calories in animal Foods they taste good and uh but you're not telling people what to eat why is more information getting people Kill the Messenger man that's not that's not a new thing they didn't like the message we were delivering”
Whole Foods was founded after Mackey had a psychedelic ego-death experience on LSD at age 22 that fundamentally shifted his worldview, leading him to move into a vegetarian co-op and eventually start a natural foods business.
“I had the Psychedelic experience uh where I experienced this ego death ego dissolving when I was 22 and pretty soon after that that's why that's why I started the book there and I'll start the answer to your uh question there and then that that really just changed my I got off the path my parents really wanted me to be on”
Mackey did not initially think in terms of win-win-win; he learned this through stakeholder capitalism, realizing that business success requires creating value for all constituencies (customers, employees, suppliers, investors, communities).
“how did that show up was that sort of through cost expansion or was it sort of you hire people to try to do something you you're unable to do or you know you're like we need to hire somebody to work on that and then of course they can't do it by themselves so they have to build a team and what what's not happening it's sort of like the federal government they add new government departments on they don't ever they don't Sunset them they don't get R of them they just add new ones on well corporations have more of a profit they just can't operate indefinitely building up a deficit the way the federal our federal government can do so there is the shareholder push to keep control of the cost to be to be sure but it's hard to do it surgically I think the most successful businesses and the most successful entrepreneurs um spend a lot of time worrying about their cost and even when they're successful one of my mistakes I think in looking back was as we got more and more successful I tended to just not say no enough uh I'd still do it more than anybody else but I was it was easy to just say yes and uh figure you can you can grow your way out of it talk to me a little bit more about the the focus aspect of this and and saying no and what you say no to because you have an organization that you're running it's large you're successful you're making money people are coming to you with these ideas maybe great projections maybe not and they just need a yes from you and at that point you're disconnected from every you don't see the and you can't easily evaluate uh whether what their proposing is going to be successful or not”
Mackey articulated the strategic question: 'What's the win-win-win solution for all stakeholders?' in response to Jana's ultimatum; this question eventually led him to the idea of Amazon as an acquirer.
“we looked around for what I would call the win-win-win solution how do we get a win for every one of our stakeholders how can we do something will be best for our customers best for our team members best for our suppliers best for investors best for the communities that we're part of I started asking that question I was putting that question you might say out to my to the universe out to my soul give me an answer for this question”
Mackey's parents raised him with perfectionist standards where bringing home straight A's with one B was met with criticism rather than praise, which created an internal critic that he has spent his life learning to overcome
“in my case my whole life in some ways has been an attempt to be able to totally accept myself because I have had I think everybody has an internal critic we not have internal critic that internal critic is judging everybody else and then frequently judging ourselves is inadequate not perfect and in my case in some ways the the the Whole Life Adventure and you get back into the Deep thing about the way I was raised my parents my you know um I was kind of that rais where if I brought home a report card and had all A's and one B it was like what are you going to do about that b son it's like there was no like that's really great fantastic report card”
After decades of success, Mackey began to enjoy Whole Foods less as it grew larger and more bureaucratic, preferring the creative, entrepreneurial work of founding Love Life over the management of a massive corporation
“when you're begin to manage a really big Corporation ah it's more about um I don't I didn't get to be as creative any longer it wasn't it wasn't my entrepreneurial Spirit was sort of not um nearly as as engaged as it was for the and that was only about the last 10 years or so remember 44 years of a long time so there was a nice long creative run and it it didn't like change overnight it just slowly as the bureaucracy got bigger”
Whole Foods became increasingly processed-food focused over time as manufacturers incorporated their standards; bulk foods dropped from 20% of sales in the first store to under 1% today.
“I will tell you one interesting statistic our very first store was over 20% of our sales were in the bulk foods to department and we didn't have any candy back then so it was just whole grains whole whole grain flow beans nuts seeds things like that whole foods and uh today it's under 1%”
Whole foods mean foods as close as possible to their natural state with minimal processing; refined products (pure oil, sugar, protein powders) are not whole foods because they strip away fiber and other nutrients.
“what does it mean for people listening what does when I say Whole Foods I mean a food that's as close to its natural state as possible so it's been minimally processed... take oil oil or sugar those are not Whole Foods if you add oil whether it be olive oil or seed oil you're not getting a whole food you're just getting the pure fat of that food and what is sugar sugar is taking a whole carbohydrate food and stripping away the fiber in The Germ until you're just left with pure carbohydrate”
Mackey learned self-love unconditionally only recently (about two years before this interview) through a guided spiritual journey where he reconnected with his inner child and recognized his core goodness despite life's wounds.
“what I experienced when I finally did it and it was just a few years ago now L A little over two years ago on on a guided spiritual journey I experienced I got really in touch with my like my inner child um this little boy that was so very beautiful and so idealistic and so loving and just wanted to help people and uh it it been hurt as we go through life we get wounded the little boy had had many wounds and um but his he was still this beautiful little boy and I saw him very clearly I saw this that child like of myself and I realized that my entire life I'd tried to do good and I'd made a lot of mistakes I'd hurt people but I knew that at the core there was this good person that really loved and um I saw that and that was the first time I really I think Unconditionally Love myself”
A banker (Mark Monroe) at City National Bank personally guaranteed a $100,000 loan to Whole Foods after the flood, even though the bank had rejected the loan; the bank's formal rejection meant Monroe's signature became the only collateral, which Mackey only learned about 10 years later.
“the bank turned the loan down the only reason you got that money was Mark Monroe personally guaranteed that loan I said what personally guaranteed why the hell would he do that and he said he did it because he said he really believed in you and he believed in Whole Foods and he knew you you'd pay him back even if it took you the rest of your life”
Mark Skyles, a co-founder, opposed expansion after the first Whole Foods' success, believing they had 'a gold mine' and should maintain status quo rather than risk growth; this disagreement led to his departure and Mackey's struggle with co-founder resistance.
“one of my co-founders Mark Mark Skyles uh after we had the really successful store he really didn't want us to grow because he said John we have a gold mine here let's just not screw it up we're we're we can be rich we don't have to do anything else we can just live off this thing for the next 25 years”
Mackey experienced four coup attempts during Whole Foods' history; he was able to defeat all of them, maintaining control of the company and its vision.
“I had I count four different coup attempts that occurred uh over the history of the company that I was able to beat back”
Whole Foods faced attacks from governments (California and New York) for alleged mispricing, generating negative publicity that drove sales down; these government actions pressured Whole Foods to drop prices to compete.
“competition was catching up with us we were being copied the whole paycheck narrative the media just ran wild with that um and we were increasingly being tacked by governments I talked to him in the book about how we had the uh that first California and then in New York um attacked us for mispricing and which we weren't deliberately mispricing anything and we were making more mistakes in favor of the customers than others but it's just on the things like cut fruit if you have a little tear weight and you could be off a penny or two but if you have an ambitious um uh weights and measures Department of Consumer Affairs it's it's kind of an extortion thing and that's what happened to us both California and New York generating massively negative publicity that drove our sales down we lost a lot of customers from that”
Love Life is a membership health club combining healthy restaurant (plant-forward), fitness center, recovery equipment (hyperbaric oxygen, cryotherapy, red light therapy), spa, and medical center focused on preventive health and reversing chronic disease.
“love life is kind of a continuation of the my hero's journey call to try to help people to be healthier first with natural regaining foods and now with with love life it's a it's a whole list membership club is really what it is and it's it's it's got elements it's it's got a healthy restaurant it's a it's a plant forward Whole Foods restaurant got some animal Foods in there but it's it's definitely focused on people eating a lot more fruits and vegetables it's um we've got a state-of-the-art fitness center we have a uh uh we have all kinds of classes spin classes work like a huge Health Center it is so I'm just telling you the parts of it so you've got a gym we've got yoga we got Pilates we've got um we have a spa we have all this recovery equipment from hyperbaric oxygen Chambers to cryotherapy to redl therapy to infrared sonis regular sonis to cold plunges”
Love is the center of everything; this became clear to Mackey through psychedelic experiences (LSD ego death, MDMA ecstasy in 1984) where he experienced profound states of unity and wrote 'there is nothing more important than love'.
“when did you realize that love was the center of everything I think I've had glimpses of it many times I mean I talked about it the first time I had that ego death and LSD that I had this realization that we were all it was just the the one being that it was it was all founded ultimately on play and love and games and then when I did MDMA for the first time Adam uh MDMA ecstasy Molly uh when it was legal back in 1984 that just burst my heart open and I I I I wrote it down I like never forget this there is nothing more important than love”
Early natural food entrepreneurs (including Mackey, operators of Mrs. Gucci, Bread and Circus, Alfalfas, and Unicorn Village) viewed themselves as part of a common movement to change how America ate; they met three times yearly and helped each other, ultimately all selling to Whole Foods.
“when we invented the natural food supermarkets there was co-invented a few different people in different parts of the country... the ones of us that were doing it we we connected with each other and we we developed friendships we we get together three times a year different a different operator would host and that's how I got to be friends with the people running M gues the people running bread and Circus the people running um alfalfas in Colorado and unicorn Village in Florida we were all meeting together and we we were all in this common Mission we wanted to sell natural organic foods we were spreading it and um we were helping each other out sharing financial information”
Mackey eventually caved to pressure and discontinued the nutrient density ratings because his team didn't want to maintain them and they were generating too much negativity; this was one of his regrets about not maintaining better information systems.
“I would tell you one interesting statistic our very first store was over 20% of our sales were in the bulk foods to department and we didn't have any candy back then so it was just whole grains whole whole grain flow beans nuts seeds things like that whole foods and uh today it's under 1% 20% to 1%... I had my share of disagreements with Amazon I I fought with them many times and uh ultimately that led to me to to retire... I had caved in my team was not they didn't they didn't want to keep doing it”