It's not all evolution: Denis Noble on how consciousness develops from disorder FULL INTERVIEW
What this covers
Denis Noble discusses the necessary and fertile relationship between disorder and order that is at the basis of life and consciousness.
Where do you think consciousness begins?
See more of Denis Noble and his approach to genetics at https://iai.tv/video/biology-beyond-genes-denis-noble?utm_source=YouTube&utm_medium=description&utm_campaign=studio
Order and disorder are famous concepts in physics, but we often overlook the role of these seemingly opposing ideas in our lives. In this exclusive interview, Denis Noble explores the intricate dance between order and disorder in biology, consciousness, language, A.I and more.
#biology #consciousness #evolution #symmetry
One of the founders of the field of systems biology, Denis Noble is an Emeritus professor of cardiovascular physiology at the University of Oxford. He was the first to develop computer models of the heart in 1960.
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00:00 Introduction 00:32 Symmetry between order and disorder 03:52 Bacteria and antibiotics 04:47 Conscious choice 10:20 Consciousness is anthropocentric 14:22 Immune system and consciousness 17:56 Creativity and innovation 21:10 AI systems and water
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Dennis Noble argues that organisms, including humans, actively control their own evolution and gene expression by harnessing stochasticity (randomness) to create order from disorder, reversing the Neo-Darwinist view that evolution is purely random mutation filtered by natural selection.
- The immune system deliberately instructs mutations and then selectively kills non-functional variants, demonstrating organism-level control over genetic change
- The nervous system contains massive stochasticity that can be harnessed by conscious intention to produce biological effects, as shown by how decision to exercise leads to muscle protein production
- AI systems cannot replicate this because they lack the water-based molecular substrate with inherent randomness that biological systems exploit
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Harnessing noise and disorder to create adaptive order can be either a conscious choice or controlled in subconscious ways; the immune system is not consciously controlled but can be strengthened through conscious decisions like exercise and nutrition.
“it can be either okay interesting it can be either because clearly in our immune system we do not consciously tell the immune system what to do we we may help it it because there are many nutritional and exercise activities that help the immune system that makes it stronger and make it easier for it to resist”
Organisms actively control their gene sequences rather than genes being subject to purely random mutation filtered by natural selection; the standard Neo-Darwinist account reverses the direction of causation.
“the standard story of evolutionary biology says there's disorder down at the lowest level molecular level genes occasionally mutate but that is totally random... my view of evolutionary biology is just the other way around I think that gets causation incorrect we actually control our Gene sequences”
Noble's view reverses the standard causal story: organisms actively control gene sequences, not passively; this is demonstrable in the immune system's directed mutation and selection of immunoglobulin variants.
“my view of evolutionary biology is just the other way around I think that gets causation incorrect we actually control our Gene sequences”
During the pandemic, the immune system instructed mutations in immune cells to find shapes that capture the virus, then selectively reproduced the cells with the successful shape and killed the others through autophagy, demonstrating organism-level control over gene expression.
“our bodies were instructing the immune system cells to mutate and then selecting from those mutations the one that creates an imunoglobulin a technical word for the protein that captures the virus that has the right dimensions and shape to capture the virus it might be one in a trillion doesn't matter there are many immune system cells so then another instruction goes to the system and it says to those cells that have found the rare shape that works for that particular virus it simply says reproduce rapidly to all the others it gives them what is called the autophagy signal which means die and then the products get reused by the organism”
Musicians understand intuitively that they can stretch and contract the regular beat to some degree and it sounds good, but if they go too far it becomes a mess, creating a tension between order and disorder.
“the musicians know this they know that you can you can stretch and contract to some degree and it sounds good if you go overboard then of course it becomes a mess so even in music there is a tension I would call it between order and disorder which they feel instinctively”
A conscious decision to exercise, made in the post-WWII period when physically weak from wartime starvation, led to RNAs being produced that instructed genes to make myosin (muscle protein), resulting in muscle growth—demonstrating that conscious decisions have unconscious biological consequences.
“when I went to school um I was young just after the war but when I eventually went to school I started cycling difficult initially and when I went to University I cycled 10 miles across London and back again every day you guess what happened that decision led to rnas being made that led to my muscles grow growing because that's what the rnas were instructing the relevant genes that make the myosin which is the muscle protein grow”
It is perfectly reasonable to speculate that water is unlikely to be replaced by any other substrate in supporting life elsewhere in the universe, making water-based architecture fundamental to consciousness.
“that because we know it's very unlikely that that will develop in any other way so it's a speculation but I think it's a perfectly reasonable one”
Life is defined as molecules in a watery suspension surrounded by a lipid membrane that continues indefinitely (self-replicating), and this definition is why scientists look for water when searching for life elsewhere in the universe.
“what is the definition of life it is molecules in a watery suspension surrounded by a lipid membrane and it continues to go on indefinitely that is the definition of a living system if we found a living system somewhere else in the universe perhaps on Mars why are we so convinced we have to look for water”
There is massive stochasticity in the nervous system; when electrodes record from neurons, the voltage fluctuates constantly with crackling noise, demonstrating fundamental randomness at the neural level.
“what that needs is one further step which is is there massive stochasticity in the nervous system and the answer is yes you stick an electrode tiny glass pipet into my brain and record from any neurons there you might take after the trillions of neurons that are there you will then if you connect it up to a loud speaker to sort of listen to the variations in the electrical potential you'll hear it crackling the whole time”
Gerald Edelman identified decades ago that the immune system harnesses stochasticity to generate diversity and then selects functional variants, publishing this insight in his book 'Neural Darwinism' 50 years ago.
“that was pointed out many years ago by Gerald Adelman who got the Nobel Prize for determining the structure of immunoglobulins and why they're able to grab viruses and bacteria and so on and then he had an Insight realizing that that's a harnessing of stochasticity didn't call it that but that's what it was um who well the nervous system can do the same thing he wrote a book called neural Darwinism 50 years ago”
Francis Crick attacked Edelman's neural Darwinism concept, claiming evolution does not work that way, despite the fact that Edelman won a Nobel Prize for determining immunoglobulin structure.
“he was then attacked by Francis Crick the great Nobel Prize winner for the double helix and so on who said this is nonsense Evolution doesn't work like that”
Descartes correctly identified consciousness as the one thing that cannot be reasonably denied, but then made a major error by inventing something vague ('I know not what') outside the body and denying consciousness to animals.
“Descartes said that long ago it was the one thing which he was absolutely correct but then he went on and invented some strange weird thing AG go on outside here I don't know but anyway and then and then he denied it to animals”
Bacteria develop antibiotic resistance through hypermutation—rapidly generating many variants and allowing the colony to include some resistant forms—thereby harnessing disorder to survive.
“bacteria discover in that they can hyper mutate which means mutating very rapidly getting various forms of the bacterium that have different results from that hyper mutation what that does is to ensure that the colony will have some that are resistant to antibiotic and that's how they survive that's how they deal with the antibiotics”
Gerald Edelman won the Nobel Prize for determining the structure of immunoglobulins and recognized that the immune system's ability to grab viruses and bacteria involves harnessing stochasticity, which he later applied to the nervous system in his theory of neural Darwinism.
“that was pointed out many years ago by Gerald Adelman who got the Nobel Prize for determining the structure of immunoglobulins and why they're able to grab viruses and bacteria and so on and then he had an Insight realizing that that's a harnessing of stochasticity didn't call it that but that's what it was um who well the nervous system can do the same thing he wrote a book called neural Darwinism 50 years ago”
We search for life (including on Mars) by looking for water because water is the only known solvent in which consciousness and life are likely to develop, making it a reliable proxy for where to search.
“if we found a living system somewhere else in the universe perhaps on Mars why are we so convinced we have to look for water that is because we know it's very unlikely that that will develop in any other way so it's a speculation but I think it's a perfectly reasonable one”
Standard evolutionary biology claims that genetic mutations are random at the molecular level, with natural selection filtering outcomes, but this misses the organism's active role in directing change.
“the standard story of evolutionary biology says there's disorder down at the lowest level molecular level genes occasionally mutate but that is totally random moreover we have no control on their view over that random process slowly natural selection filters out those that happen to have a lucky mutation which gives them an advantage from those that got an Unlucky One”
The nervous system contains massive stochasticity (random electrical fluctuations); recording from any neuron with a microelectrode reveals constant crackling voltage variations, demonstrating a physical substrate for harnessing randomness.
“what that needs is one further step which is is there massive stochasticity in the nervous system and the answer is yes you stick an electrode tiny glass pipet into my brain and record from any neurons there you might take after the trillions of neurons that are there you will then if you connect it up to a loud speaker to sort of listen to the variations in the electrical potential you'll hear it crackling the whole time and what you get is the the voltage is doing this all the time there's massive stochasticity there”
AI will not develop genuine consciousness as long as it remains built from crystalline (fixed-molecule) structures, because such structures cannot harness randomness the way biological systems built from water can.
“I do not think that AI will develop genuine Consciousness for us to recognize that if it remains fixed with it molecules in the system that is enabling it to exist at all because that's the physical basis of the AI um for as long as it's the case that it's made out of what is effectively a crystalline structure it can't harness the randomness that we can do in all of ourselves”
During viral infection, immune system cells are instructed by the organism to mutate, then selected for those that produce immunoglobulins with the right shape to capture the virus—potentially one in a trillion—and the successfully selected cells are instructed to reproduce while unsuccessful ones receive autophagy signals to die and be recycled.
“our bodies were instructing the immune system cells to mutate and then selecting from those mutations the one that creates an imunoglobulin a technical word for the protein that captures the virus that has the right dimensions and shape to capture the virus it might be one in a trillion doesn't matter there are many immune system cells so then another instruction goes to the system and it says to those cells that have found the rare shape that works for that particular virus it simply says reproduce rapidly to all the others it gives them what is called the autophagy signal which means die and then the products get reused by the organism”
Jerry Coyne and prominent Neo-Darwinists claim that consciousness is a fantastic illusion generated by evolution—that it is not actually useful—but this view is contradictory and wrong because consciousness consumes 20% of the brain's energy, so evolution would not have generated something so costly that provides no actual utility.
“if you listen to Jerry coin prominent Neo Darin in the United States he will write something quite extraordinary he says Evolution has generated for us a fantastic illusion it is the illusion that we are conscious now that's his explanation so we're not really doing anything with our consciousness on his view well I don't buy that for a very obvious reason this box inside here consumes 20% of my energy why ever should Evolution have developed something that consumes so much energy but which is not actually useful that doesn't make sense to me”
The major criterion for consciousness is the capacity for unlimited associative learning—demonstrated by humans learning grammar, syntax, writing, and inventing new poetic tropes, and demonstrated equally by octopuses and many other organisms.
“one of the major books on the nature of Consciousness that's the book by Ginsburg and Y Blanca the evolution of the sensitive Soul says in effect we think the major Criterion for showing that an organism is conscious and intentionally acting is the the ability to have unlimited associative learning”
The principle that organisms control stochastic systems in the immune system can be extended to the nervous system, where the organism as a whole can intervene with conscious intention, a concept opposed by Neo-Darwinists.
“this extension of the idea that there's control from the organism as a whole not conscious of the immune system to apply it to the nervous system is not a new idea by any means but I think it's totally correct”
The immune system's control over mutation and selection can occur either consciously or unconsciously; it is not always consciously directed but can be supported by conscious choices like exercise and nutrition.
“it can be either okay interesting it can be either because clearly in our immune system we do not consciously tell the immune system what to do we we may help it it because there are many nutritional and exercise activities that help the immune system that makes it stronger and make it easier for it to resist but we don't consciously do that well unless we've been told by doctors please exercise please eat reasonably”
Ginsburg and Yartsev's book 'The Evolution of the Sensitive Soul' identifies unlimited associative learning as the major criterion for consciousness and intentional action, and they document that this ability extends far back in evolutionary history, at least to the Cambrian explosion.
“one of the major books on the nature of Consciousness that's the book by Ginsburg and Y Blanca the evolution of the sensitive Soul says in effect we think the major Criterion for showing that an organism is conscious and intentionally acting is the the ability to have unlimited associative learning”
The octopus can perform unlimited associative learning, demonstrating that this capacity—the criterion for consciousness—extends to non-human animals with radically different neural architectures.
“what they show is the octopus can do that yeah and so can a lot of other organisms”
The origin of consciousness dates back at least to the Cambrian explosion 500 million years ago, not to recent human evolution as the modern synthesis suggests.
“they would put the origin of Consciousness as at least as far back as the Cambrian explosion that's 500 million years ago”
There is a logical contradiction in the Neo-Darwinist position: Coyne says evolution generated consciousness as an illusion, but then asks 'how does it come about?', which presupposes a 'we' that can wonder and choose—i.e., it presupposes consciousness, contradicting the claim that consciousness is illusory.
“what he goes on to say is well but we might wonder how it comes about that Evolution has generated such a powerful illusion now my response to that sentence is to say wait a minute Jerry who is this we who might wonder and then make a choice between agreeing with you or disagreeing with you isn't that back to conscious choice”
Bacteria can hyper-mutate, generating rapidly different forms, ensuring the colony will have some resistant to antibiotics, which explains why antibiotic resistance develops and our antibiotic arsenal grows weaker over time.
“bacteria discover in that they can hyper mutate which means mutating very rapidly getting various forms of the bacterium that have different results from that hyper mutation what that does is to ensure that the colony will have some that are resistant to antibiotic and that's how they survive that's how they deal with the antibiotics”
Octopuses demonstrate consciousness through their ability to perform unlimited associative learning—they can learn something new and communicate with humans in ways that demonstrate intentional action and awareness.
“now what they show is the octopus can do that yeah and so can a lot of other organisms”
Descartes was correct that consciousness cannot be reasonably denied ('I think therefore I am'), but then made the major error of denying consciousness to animals, when in fact animals are conscious as evidenced by their behavioral capacities.
“I don't think we can reasonably deny our own Consciousness dayart said that long ago it was the one thing which he was absolutely correct but then he went on and invented some strange weird thing AG go on outside here I don't know but anyway and then and then he denied it to animals but animals are conscious”
The extension of organism-level control from the immune system to the nervous system is not new; it builds on decades of work following Edelman's insights and represents the correct understanding of how biology actually works.
“this extension of the idea that there's control from the organism as a whole not conscious of the immune system to apply it to the nervous system is not a new idea by any means but I think it's totally correct”
Animals are conscious, as evidenced by observation of their behavior; watching an octopus interact with a human or a pet cat stare at you makes it exceedingly difficult to deny their consciousness.
“animals are conscious you you watch an octopus interacting with a human it's just amazing what they can do”
Women's beauty spots are deliberately placed asymmetrically, and online faces with perfect symmetry put people off, demonstrating that humans find asymmetric beauty more attractive than perfect symmetry.
“yes online you have these faces that are perfectly symmetrical yes and it puts people off it does exactly so yes I've got an asymmetric thing me here yeah well when if it's on a woman you say it's it's a beauty spot they're very rarely symmetrical”
In Schubert's Piano Trio slow movement, Schubert deliberately introduces an extra beat to create a slight deviation from regular rhythm, with the exact timing left to the musician's discretion.
“oh what do we do when you get the the the beat going you see and you B BM that is the beginning of Shubert's Trio Piano Trio in its slow movement he deliberately puts in an extra beat and the exact timing of that is up to the musician of course the general Rhythm stays”
In dance, the order-disorder principle appears when the leading dancer sometimes stretches or contracts the three-beat waltz rhythm (1-2-3 becomes 1-2-3 stretched out), creating a more beautiful effect.
“sometimes you do it in dance Too do a wall in which you see sometimes the male dancer the or the leader let's put it that way I can illustrate it a little bit it's as though you go into a three 1 2 3 but sometimes you do a one two three you stretch it out and it looks much more beautiful”
Humans are approximately 70% water, making water the physical medium in which consciousness operates; ignoring this material fact leads to flawed theories of consciousness.
“we are what is it 70% water something like that I mean to anybody who thinks that all of this is nice and solid it isn't it's all it's mostly like that”
The origin of consciousness can be traced back at least as far as the Cambrian explosion, approximately 500 million years ago, based on organisms' demonstrated capacity for unlimited associative learning and intentional action.
“they would put the origin of Consciousness as at least as far back as the Cambrian explosion that's 500 million years ago”
The Neo-Darwinist modern synthesis view, following Descartes, incorrectly places consciousness as a recent development unique to humans, when the evidence from Ginsburg and Deaner's work demonstrates consciousness extended back at least 500 million years to the Cambrian explosion.
“the modern view according to the modern synthesis NE darwinist is oh it's a recent development in us well they're following dayart and that was decart's big mistake I'm sorry to say”
AI systems cannot replicate organism-level consciousness because they are made of silicon with fixed, crystalline molecular structure, not water; water molecules have inherent stochasticity, while silicon molecules are essentially fixed and cannot harness randomness the way biological systems do.
“if I take some pollen grains grind them up very fine into the finest dust I can create and drop them into the water and then look at the water with a microscope each of those grains is moving around like this y take the silic chip each of its molecules is completely fixed it's like a crystal it might vibrate a little bit but it's not doing this what that tells me is two things first of all down at the very deep molecular level even sub molecular because water is the tiniest molecule you can have in the body there is fantastic stochasticity the AI machine does not have that it can't have it”
Organisms can create order from disorder through harnessing stochasticity, which is the most fundamental type of symmetry that can exist in the universe.
“organisms can create order from disorder now that is the principle of symmetry of order and disorder which is my view of the most fundamental type of symmetry that there can be in the universe”
Jerry Coyne's position that consciousness is an illusion contains a logical flaw: if consciousness is illusory, then the 'we' who wonder about and deliberate between accepting or rejecting this claim must be conscious, making the position self-refuting.
“my response to that sentence is to say wait a minute Jerry who is this we who might wonder and then make a choice between agreeing with you or disagreeing with you isn't that back to conscious choice I don't know what he would say to that”
Kibun (a Korean/East Asian concept meaning a sense of being 'up there' with one's spirit) represents a conscious way people can support their immune system, and maintaining high kibun likely helped mental health during the pandemic.
“people in East Asia have an expression for what I think is relevant here they will say kibun CH which is key is their word for this sense of being up there with your your spirit if you want to call it that and I don't mind people calling it that um with your umph your spirit up there now I believe it is probable that that does help the immune system”
As long as AI systems remain made of crystalline silicon (or similar fixed-molecule substrates), they cannot develop genuine consciousness because they lack the water-based stochasticity required to harness randomness in the way biological organisms do.
“I do not think that AI will develop genuine Consciousness for us to recognize that if it remains fixed with it molecules in the system that is enabling it to exist at all because that's the physical basis of the AI um for as long as it's the case that it's made out of what is effectively a crystalline structure it can't harness the randomness that we can do in all of ourselves”
The East Asian concept of 'kibun'—maintaining one's spirit up and sense of being in control—probably helps the immune system, and helps explain why people with mental disorders suffered worse during the pandemic.
“people in East Asia have an expression for what I think is relevant here they will say kibun CH which is key is their word for this sense of being up there with your your spirit if you want to call it that and I don't mind people calling it that um with your umph your spirit up there now I believe it is probable that that does help the immune system”
The order-disorder principle is general across architecture, geometry, music, and the arts, showing that this is a fundamental principle of aesthetics and perhaps of nature itself.
“I think it's General in architecture in geometry and in the Arts like music to play with this strange symmetry between order and disorder”
The modern synthesis / Neo-Darwinist view incorrectly follows Descartes' error of denying consciousness to animals, which limits its ability to explain organism-level control of evolution.
“the modern view according to the modern synthesis NE darwinist is oh it's a recent development in us well they're following dayart and that was decart's big mistake I'm sorry to say”
There is something deep but poorly understood about why asymmetric objects appear more beautiful than perfectly symmetrical ones, suggesting artists understand this intuitively even if they cannot articulate the principle.
“I think there's something deep here and I don't know how to get to grips with it but artists seem to know instinctively that a pure perfectly symmetrical object is not so beautiful”
The question of why harnessing disorder and noise cannot be replicated in AI systems requires examining the fundamental difference: water has stochasticity at the molecular level that silicon-based AI does not possess.
“an AI system is not made of water we are now why does that matter if I take some pollen grains grind them up very fine into the finest dust I can create and drop them into the water and then look at the water with a microscope each of those grains is moving around like this y take the silic chip each of its molecules is completely fixed it's like a crystal it might vibrate a little bit but it's not doing this”
Down at the molecular and sub-molecular level, water exhibits fantastic stochasticity while the AI silicon chip has molecules fixed in crystal structure, pointing to the impossibility of replicating biological consciousness in current AI architectures.
“down at the very deep molecular level even sub molecular because water is the tiniest molecule you can have in the body there is fantastic stochasticity the AI machine does not have that it can't have it”
The order-disorder symmetry principle is general across architecture, geometry, and the arts (music, dance), showing that all forms of aesthetic expression intuitively employ this principle.
“I think it's General in architecture in geometry and in the Arts like music to play with this strange symmetry between order and disorder”
The brain consumes 20% of the body's energy; if consciousness were merely an illusion without functional purpose, evolution would not have produced such an energetically expensive structure.
“this box inside here consumes 20% of my energy why ever should Evolution have developed something that consumes so much energy but which is not actually useful that doesn't make sense to me”
Unlimited associative learning in humans is exemplified by language: we learn grammar, syntax, and writing, then recombine these elements in novel ways—poets inventing new tropes and expressions being a prime example.
“we do it in our language our language has a structure of course which we have to learn the grammar it has a syntax which we have to learn it has writing which we have to learn but once we've done all of that we can start reassembling in all kinds of ways what are poets doing they're inventing new tropes new ways of expressing language and that's I think as good a Criterion for Consciousness in us as you might want”
Conscious decisions can have unconscious biological consequences because the person does not directly manipulate the molecular machinery; they perform an action (like cycling), which then instructs genes to produce proteins—demonstrating indirect conscious control.
“of course a a conscious decision can have as consequences if we understand enough that seem to be unconscious because clearly I was not personally manipulating the rnas that told the relevant gen to make more protein but in effect that's what I was doing without perhaps initially being aware that that was the case”
If AI were created from water-based substrate (rather than silicon), one would essentially be creating life, since life is defined as molecules in a watery suspension surrounded by a lipid membrane that continues indefinitely.
“if they are able to create a sort of AI system from water do you think that that could be conscious well you'd then be creating life what is the definition of life it is molecules in a watery suspension surrounded by a lipid membrane and it continues to go on indefinitely that is the definition of a living system”
The order-disorder symmetry is 'very strange' because we naturally expect symmetries (in architecture, beauty) to be ordered, yet Perfect symmetry appears less beautiful than slightly asymmetric symmetry, suggesting a deeper principle at work.
“it's a very strange symmetry isn't it because we naturally think that most symmetries like architecture and so on will be ordered so how can you have a symmetry between order and disorder”
There is a deep relationship between order-disorder balance and beauty that remains not fully understood, but it appears to be a general principle across multiple domains—something artists intuitively grasp.
“I think there's something deep here and I don't know how to get to grips with it but artists seem to know instinctively that a pure perfectly symmetrical object is not so beautiful”
Perfect symmetry in visual objects (like perfectly symmetrical faces) tends to be less beautiful than objects with slight asymmetry, suggesting a deep principle about beauty and the role of disorder.
“we naturally think that most symmetries like architecture and so on will be ordered so how can you have a symmetry between order and disorder well it's interesting because artists actually know that you need a little bit of disorder the architects in the East will tend and so also in ancient Greek architecture to put something that's not quite completely symmetrical in and the Curious thing is that we appreciate that as in one sense or another a little bit more beautiful”
Anthropocentric understandings of consciousness that define it by human standards are mistaken; we should recognize consciousness in animals by observing behavioral signals—staring an octopus or cat in the eyes and trying to deny its consciousness is exceedingly difficult to do.
“stare it in the eyes and try to deny that it is conscious and I think it's exceedingly difficult to do that”
Ginsburg and Deaner's book 'The Evolution of the Sensitive Soul' documents across 600 pages how many organisms possess the capacity for consciousness defined as unlimited associative learning, extending surprisingly far down the evolutionary tree.
“it takes 600 pages to demonstrate that because they document how many organisms have this ability it's just surprising how far down if you want to say down the evolution tree it actually goes”
Noble challenged an AI researcher asking how soon they would create conscious AI, pointing out that evolution took 2 billion years to achieve consciousness in organisms, and AI researchers are unlikely to accomplish it soon.
“I challenged one of them and said the next time you make an AI and claim that it has reached the threshold for becoming like us can you try to make it out of water the response was really I said you see your difficulty is that Evolution took 2 billion years to achieve achieve what it's achieved in us and in other organisms do you think you're going to do that soon no way”
The best criterion we can reasonably use for consciousness in animals without eyes or other sensory capacities is that they display signals that give us a strong feeling we are communicating with something aware and conscious, rather than an AI robot.
“after all there are blind fish and there all sort well yes of course we use signals that give us the strong feeling that we're talking not to an AI robot but to something that is aware and conscious but I don't think we will ever have any other criteria so my feeling about this is that's the best we can do and it's not a bad best it's actually quite good”
Many musicians would not be aware of the theoretical principle underlying their intuitive practice of stretching and contracting rhythm, but what they are doing is playing with the order-disorder tension.
“and I don't know they many of them would know what they're doing but I I think what they're doing is”
Francis Crick attacked Edelman's neural Darwinism theory, dismissing it by claiming evolution doesn't work that way, but this critique reflects the same Neo-Darwinist assumptions that lead to denying human consciousness.
“he was then attacked by Francis Crick the great Nobel Prize winner for the double helix and so on who said this is nonsense Evolution doesn't work like that but that takes us back of course to the Neo darwinists and their wish as in Jerry coin to deny that we're even conscious”
Perfectly symmetrical human faces (like those generated online) are perceived as less attractive, whereas faces with minor asymmetries are considered more beautiful—exemplifying the order-disorder principle in human aesthetics.
“online you have these faces that are perfectly symmetrical yes and it puts people off it does exactly”
Beauty marks on women's faces, which are rarely symmetrical, are culturally appreciated as enhancing attractiveness, supporting the principle that perfect symmetry is less beautiful than slight asymmetry.
“when if it's on a woman you say it's it's a beauty spot they're very rarely symmetrical”
After World War II, Noble had minimal muscle mass due to starvation and limited protein; conscious decisions to cycle regularly led to RNA instructions that produced myosin protein, causing muscle growth—demonstrating how conscious choice produces biological change without conscious control of the underlying mechanisms.
“as a boy after the second World War I had virtually no muscles here or here we were starved during the war the rations were so thin didn't get very much meat either so not much protein when I went to school um I was young just after the war but when I eventually went to school I started cycling difficult initially and when I went to University I cycled 10 miles across London and back again every day you guess what happened that decision led to rnas being made that led to my muscles grow growing because that's what the rnas were instructing the relevant genes that make the myosin which is the muscle protein grow and that led to me getting these to grow”
Artists and architects (in the East and in ancient Greece) instinctively know that a perfectly symmetrical object is less beautiful than one with slight asymmetry or imperfection, even if they cannot explicitly articulate why.
“artists actually know that you need a little bit of disorder the architects in the East will tend and so also in ancient Greek architecture to put something that's not quite completely symmetrical in and the Curious thing is that we appreciate that as in one sense or another a little bit more beautiful”
Music exemplifies the order-disorder principle: composers like Schubert deliberately introduce extra beats or timing variations (disorder) that make music sound better than perfectly regular rhythm—musicians instinctively know this.
“he deliberately puts in an extra beat and the exact timing of that is up to the musician of course the general Rhythm stays but even there a little bit of this is okay it depend it the musicians know this they know that you can you can stretch and contract to some degree and it sounds good”
If AI systems are created from water and become self-replicating in a watery suspension surrounded by lipid membranes, they would essentially become alive and would have the capacity for consciousness.
“if they are able to create a sort of AI system from water do you think that that could be conscious well you'd then be creating life what is the definition of life it is molecules in a watery suspension surrounded by a lipid membrane and it continues to go on indefinitely”
The order-disorder symmetry provides unexpected insights into biology, revealing how consciousness, life, and the functioning of immune and nervous systems all depend on harnessing stochasticity—a principle that extends across domains from cellular biology to behavior.
“and you know what this shows is astonishing how how much new biological Insight comes from the order disorder symmetry”
If musicians deviate too much from rhythm (introducing too much disorder), music becomes a mess; there is a tension between order and disorder that musicians feel instinctively.
“if you go overboard then of course it becomes a mess so even in music there is a tension I would call it between order and disorder which they feel instinctively”
Dance exemplifies order-disorder balance: the male (leader) in a waltz sometimes stretches out the 1-2-3 rhythm (introducing disorder) to create a more beautiful effect than rigid timing.
“sometimes you do it in dance Too do a wall in which you see sometimes the male dancer the or the leader let's put it that way I can illustrate it a little bit it's as though you go into a three 1 2 3 but sometimes you do a one two three you stretch it out and it looks much more beautiful”
Evolution took 2 billion years to achieve consciousness in biological systems; AI researchers are extremely unlikely to replicate this in a short timeframe, and the substrate problem makes it even less likely.
“I said you see your difficulty is that Evolution took 2 billion years to achieve achieve what it's achieved in us and in other organisms do you think you're going to do that soon no way”
Humans are approximately 70% water, so to anyone thinking of the body as solid and fixed, the reality is that most of the body operates like fluid systems with flexibility and stochasticity.
“we are what is it 70% water something like that I mean to anybody who thinks that all of this is nice and solid it isn't it's all it's mostly like that”
The order-disorder symmetry principle generates astonishing new biological insights, demonstrating how fundamental this symmetry is to understanding living systems.
“you know what this shows is astonishing how how much new biological Insight comes from the order disorder symmetry”