What this covers
George F. Will and Russ Roberts discuss the trajectory of American governance, the current political moment, and baseball. Will traces his path from Princeton philosophy and academic teaching into Washington journalism and syndicated columns, and uses the conversation to develop his central claim about the relationship between government expansion and the erosion of law: as Congress delegates substance to opaque administrative rule-making, the allocation of wealth and opportunity by government becomes the rational target of lobbying, concentrating benefits among the well-organized and wealthy while dispersing costs across the unorganized mass. He frames the Tea Party movement and the pending Supreme Court challenge to the health-care mandate as a constitutional test of whether enumerated limits on federal power retain any force, or whether the Madisonian project of limited government has finally collapsed.
Will ranges widely across the administrative state's mechanics—comparing the Soviet Union's fatal ignorance of price signals to the Kansas City schools experiment, illustrating concentrated benefits and dispersed costs with sugar quotas, and dissecting why civil rights legislation succeeded where Prohibition failed. He argues that contemporary political conflict, despite its perceived acrimony, is historically mild compared to the 1790s and 1850s, but that proliferating media outlets amplify weak voices. On baseball, he explains competitive imbalance through local broadcast revenue, contrasts it with the NFL's revenue-sharing, and touches on steroid testing, Jackie Robinson's impact, and the renewal brought by Camden Yards. Several positions bear marking as contested—his claims about the rule of law's inevitable contraction, the administrative state's inherent engine of inequality, and his skepticism about money's utility in politics and electoral campaigns.
Will argues that the growth of the administrative state inevitably erodes the rule of law and breeds rent-seeking, because concentrating power over the allocation of wealth makes lobbying a rational, market-driven response—and that the Madisonian project of limited government is the proper, if endangered, corrective.
- As government expands, the rule of law contracts because Congress passes 'sentiments' and delegates substance to opaque rule-making.
- Concentrated benefits and dispersed costs guarantee that the wealthy and organized capture the administrative process.
- The Tea Party and the health-care mandate case represent a live test of whether limited, enumerated government still constrains federal power.
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Baseball's economic dysfunction stemmed from competitive imbalance driven by local broadcast revenues tied to the number of TV sets in a team's market—unlike the NFL, which shares national TV revenue equally so a small-market team can win the Super Bowl—and the sport has been slowly evolving from an 'Articles of Confederation' of loosely federated franchises toward a unified 'Constitution' of one entity with 30 partners.
“far too much was predictable simply in terms of the number of television sets in a team's area. Because local broadcast revenues are terribly important in baseball in a way that they are not in the NFL.”
The Soviet Union 'died of ignorance' because, lacking a price system, it could not know what anything should cost, leading to a manufacturing process of 'value subtraction' in which it produced goods (e.g., shoes) worth less than the materials that went into them.
“The Soviet Union died of ignorance. That is, it not having a price system, it couldn't know what anything should cost... they came up with a manufacturing process called value subtraction. That is they produce shoes worth less than the materials that went into them.”
It is an iron law that as government expands the rule of law contracts, because Congress—unable to lengthen the day while its workload grows twentyfold—stops passing binding laws and instead passes sentiments, delegating substance to an executive rule-making process recorded in the Federal Register, marginalizing Congress as the progressive design intended.
“it is an iron law that as the government expands, the rule of law contracts. It does so because Congress winds up, instead of passing laws that actually bind people and direct the federal agencies, it passes sentiments.”
The growth of the administrative state inherently produces rent-seeking because when government decisions allocate great wealth and opportunity, great wealth will be spent influencing those decisions—making lobbying a natural market consequence, not a moral failure.
“When government decisions allocate great wealth and opportunity, great wealth will be spent on influencing government decision-making. It just follows as night to day. It's a market working.”
The administrative state is inherently an engine of inequality because those most able to manipulate the administrative process—the wealthy, well-connected, and compact interest groups with legal talent—dominate it, while the unorganized mass of Americans are simply not involved; this follows the law of concentrated benefits and dispersed costs (e.g., sugar quotas benefiting roughly a dozen families at the expense of 308 million sugar-eaters).
“the administrative state is inherently an engine of inequality because those who are most able to manipulate the administrative process are the wealthy, the well-connected, the intense, the compact interest groups”
Steroid use in baseball will never be fully eliminated because the psychic and economic rewards of athletic excellence guarantee perpetual incentives to cheat and an ongoing arms race between chemists devising performance enhancers and chemists devising tests—though Will believes the testers are currently winning.
“such are the rewards of of uh psychic and economic rewards of athletic excellence, there will always be incentives to cheat, and there will be chemists who will try and help you cheat, and there'll be an ongoing race forever between the good chemists and the bad chemists.”
Since the Second World War the three biggest events in baseball were Jackie Robinson (bringing waves of new talent including from Latin America), free agency (extending to players the basic right to negotiate employment with the employer of their choice, without the predicted bad consequences), and Camden Yards (reviving the old-style ballpark that takes advantage of baseball being the most observable team game).
“since the Second World War, the three biggest events were Jackie Robinson, free agency, and Camden Yards.”
The label 'discretionary spending' is misleading because virtually all federal spending is discretionary—Social Security and Medicare are mandatory only until Congress chooses at its discretion to make them not mandatory—with the only genuine exception being the roughly 6% that is debt service.
“It's all discretionary... With the possible exception of the 6% that is debt service... Social Security is mandatory until we choose at our discretion to make it not mandatory. So we really ought to quit using the phrase.”
American political conflict today is no more vicious than in past eras—the 1790s, the 1850s sectional crisis (e.g., the caning of Charles Sumner), the 1920s Red Scare, and McCarthyism—so complaints about today's 'tone' overstate a historically mild period; what is genuinely different is the proliferation of media outlets that outpaces the supply of talent, giving weak minds strong larynxes.
“What's different today is there are so many more megaphones for so many more ignorami, frankly. And the number of outlets ravenous for people to come on and talk and write have grown much faster than has the supply of talent. So you've got some pretty weak minds out there with strong larynxes.”
Civil rights legislation and Brown v. Board of Education actually changed attitudes, not merely behavior, because you can stigmatize conduct with law—forcing integration of schools, pools, and lunch counters worked precisely because it legislated against moral behavior rather than against appetites (unlike Prohibition or drug laws, which failed).
“you can say all you want that you can't legislate morality, and you can say maybe you shouldn't legislate morality, but you certainly can. We did... We're going to stigmatize it with a law... Get over it. And you know what? People got over it.”
Some conservatives who are clear-eyed about the limits of government working its will domestically lose that clarity when the same government tries to work its will abroad—an inconsistency exposed by asking soldiers (trained and well-suited to kill with minimal casualties) to do counterinsurgency nation-building work they are not suited for.
“some of my conservative friends who are clear-eyed about the limits of our government working its will in this country tend to lose that clarity regarding this country as it tries to work its will abroad.”
Democracies only act on difficult problems under the lash of necessity—when they have no other choice—just as the British listened to Churchill without hearing him through the 1930s and only got serious when Hitler reached the Channel ports; the US is not yet at its 'Channel ports moment' on fiscal reform.
“democracies act about difficult problems under the lash of necessity. That is when they really have no other choice. We're not quite there yet... They finally got serious when Hitler got to the Channel ports. And we're not at a Channel ports moment yet.”
The shattering of the three-network television oligopoly (where 30 years ago 80% of TV sets at dinner hour were tuned to ABC, CBS, NBC) is on balance an excellent thing, even though it has been driven in some cases by weird people, because the country no longer gathers around three campfires.
“30 years ago at the dinner hour in America, 80% of all television sets in use were tuned to ABC, CBS, NBC. That oligopoly is shattered beyond repair and that's a good thing.”
The US has a structural unemployment problem and risks a permanent submerged underclass driven by the combination of inadequate K-12 education and immigration, undermining the upward social mobility that has been the great promise of American life.
“We have a structural unemployment problem uh brought on by the fact the combination of inadequate K through 12 education plus immigration. And we're in danger of having a permanent submerged underclass.”
The Tea Party movement is a genuine spontaneous combustion reflecting Americans' retrospective political bearings (taking their orientation from 1773, the founding, and the Constitution) and a Madisonian recoil from what Mitch Daniels called the 'shock and awe statism' of the Obama administration, indicating strong residual respect for limited government.
“The Tea Party movement takes its bearings from something that happened in 1773 for Pete's sake. And it's a Madisonian recoil from the what Governor Mitch Daniels of Indiana's called the shock and awe statism of the Obama administration.”
It is one of the crowning ironies of the era that liberals, who are the great architects of the administrative state, are also the great complainers about lobbyists, who are the natural consequence of that state's growth.
“it's a one of the crowning ironies of our day is that liberals who are the great architects of the administrative state are also the great complainers about lobbyists who are the natural consequence of the growth of the administrative state.”
The US is unlikely to default on its debt because, as the world's reserve currency, it can inflate its way out—but doing so will handicap its future ability to do creative things.
“we probably won't default on our debt cuz we can inflate our way out of it. We that will handicap our ability to do some creative things down the road”
The coming Supreme Court case on the constitutionality of the health-care mandate will determine whether there are any limits to the power government can derive from the Commerce Clause; if there are none, the Madisonian project of limited government is finished, making it a near-Dred-Scott-level constitutional moment.
“we are heading in the Supreme Court with the coming case of the constitutionality of the health care mandate to decide whether there are any limits to the power that a government can derive under the power to regulate interstate commerce... And if there aren't then the Madisonian project is finished.”
The Kansas City schools episode—where a judge ordered nearly a billion dollars spent and taxes raised in an attempt to fix urban education—was a disastrous judicial intervention demonstrating that throwing money at urban education produces cataclysmic results.
“Kansas City was the scene of a disastrous judicial intervention... where a judge ordered uh almost a billion dollars to be spent. A judge ordered taxes to be raised... an attempt to stem the problems of urban education by throwing money at them with predictable and cataclysmic results.”
McCain-Feingold radicalized Will toward libertarianism because it never occurred to him that the political class would have the audacity to pass legislation controlling the quality, content, and timing of political speech about the political class, or that the Supreme Court would affirm it.
“I was somewhat radicalized by McCain-Feingold... It never occurred to me that Congress the political class would have the audacity to pass legislation controlling the quality, content, and timing of political speech about the political class. Or that the Supreme Court would then affirm it.”
When the iPod was invented around 2001 there were 80,000 Americans working in music stores; ten years later only 20,000 remained, but the other 60,000 went to work elsewhere—an instance of creative destruction not to be halted.
“The iPod was invented, I think, in 2001, at which point there were 80,000 Americans working in music stores. 10 years later, there are 20,000 Americans working in music stores. But the other 60,000 are working somewhere else.”
The Yankees demonstrate the declining utility of dollars in baseball, just as Meg Whitman's failed California gubernatorial run showed it in politics—money buys less competitive advantage than commonly assumed.
“the Yankees demonstrate the declining utility of dollars in baseball. We've seen it in politics. Otherwise Meg Whitman would be governor of California.”
What is alarming in Washington isn't what's done that's illegal but what's done that's legal.
“it's an old axiom that what's alarming in in Washington isn't what's done that's illegal, but what's done that's legal.”
Will grew up in Champaign, Illinois as a faculty brat, studied PPE at Oxford, got a PhD in philosophy from Princeton, taught at Michigan State and Toronto, then entered Washington in 1970 to write for Senator Gordon Allott before becoming a columnist.
“I grew up in Champaign, Illinois. I was a faculty brat... I went to Oxford for 2 years studying what's called PPE, Politics, Philosophy, and Economics... I got a PhD in 3 years and went off to teach.”
A column is a craft, not an art—like making shoes—and a columnist isn't doing the job right if readers don't learn things beyond the writer's opinions.
“It's a craft. It's not an art. I'm not painting the Sistine Chapel ceiling. It's a craft like making shoes.”
Will keeps a list of about 15 column topics on half of a 3x5 card in his wallet and writes when the world irritates, amuses, or makes him curious, paraphrasing Buckley's line that 'the world irritates me three times a week.'
“Bill's answer was, 'The world irritates me three times a week.' And to me, the world irritates, amuses, or makes me curious five times every 2 weeks.”