
The Economy is About to Collapse | Luke Gromen
What this covers
Governments aren’t going to pay this debt down in real terms. More likely, they pay it back in weaker money.
Luke Gromen argues we’re already deep into a sovereign debt cycle - and that AI could speed up the moment it really starts to crack.
In this interview we discuss how the system works: leverage, entitlements, interest costs, bond markets - and what happens when deflation hits an economy that depends on inflation to stay upright.
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TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 – Debt Reality 01:57 – Math vs Politics 06:26 – Already In It 08:51 – Japan Warning 14:38 – Acute Phase Risk 15:32 – What To Do 21:33 – End Of The Cycle 34:13 – AI Disruption 40:20 – 2007 Parallel 49:07 – UBI & Politics 58:02 – Sovereign Insolvency 1:08:26 – Meaning & Collapse
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CONTACT PETE › Website – http://petermccormack.com › Feedback – https://www.petermccormack.com/contact › Email – me@petermccormack.com › Instagram – /mccormack555 › X/Twitter – https://x.com/petermccormack/
CONNECT WITH LUKE GROMEN › X/Twitter – https://x.com/LukeGromen › Website – http://fftt-llc.com/
SPONSORS › IREN - https://www.iren.com/ › Ledger - https://www.ledger.com/
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LISTEN / SUBSCRIBE › Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/40ruY9K › Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3Wc94Vu › Fountain: https://bit.ly/FountainPM › YouTube: https://bit.ly/YouTube_PM › Rumble: https://bit.ly/RumblePM
FILMED BY CURTIS TAYLOR › https://www.curttaylor.co.uk/ › https://x.com/curttayloruk/
EDITED BY CONOR MCCORMACK › https://x.com/ConorM04
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#debtcrisis #ai #macro #tpms #financialsystem
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Western governments face an inescapable debt spiral driven by entitlements, defense, and interest payments that cannot be resolved without either severe fiscal austerity (politically impossible and mathematically destructive) or currency debasement, while AI-driven deflation and job displacement will trigger the acute phase of this crisis within 12-24 months, making current preparation essential for individuals.
- Federal receipts ($5.2T) cannot cover entitlements (70%), interest (30%), and defense (20%) simultaneously—totaling 120% of receipts with everything else cut to zero
- AI will cause white-collar job losses in a highly leveraged system where mortgage holders and professionals have minimal equity, triggering cascading defaults similar to 2008 but with no upstream backstop available
- The historical relationship between Treasury yields and Japanese bond yields breaking in late 2023, combined with yen weakness despite higher JGB competitiveness, signals imminent loss of confidence in developed-market sovereign debt
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Even in an 'age of abundance' scenario where AI produces nearly-free goods, fundamental problems remain unsolved: how are property rights allocated, how are land/real estate distributed among a population with no employment income, how do you maintain rule of law and police services when pension funds become worthless in real terms, forcing civil servants to choose between legal work and extortion.
“if everybody has to get fired. In fact, the title of my report for clients last week was, "No, AI is not going to take all the white collar jobs. AI is going to take some jobs and systemic leverage will do the rest." We know exactly how this goes. What percentage of subprime mortgage holders defaulted on their loans? In the grand scheme of things, it wasn't that much.”
The most important personal preparation for the coming crisis is not financial optimization but rather development of interpersonal and communication skills, because in breakdown scenarios, the ability to negotiate, cooperate, and relate to people will be more valuable than monetary assets.
“like, I don't worry too much about your exam results anymore. I worry about uh how you how you speak to other people, like how you in you interact with other people. I think that's your most important skill right now.”
Blockbuster Video's collapse from 7,000-8,000 stores to zero in roughly 15 years (after Netflix's 1997 founding) serves as a perfect historical template for how exponential technology disruption appears slow until it's suddenly complete, predicting white-collar job displacement will feel similar.
“What else did Blockbuster Video do after Netflix?...how many blockbuster video stores are there left in America? It used to be seven or eight thousand. I think there's none...that's what people and I think that is what these tech one the guy who was running you know guardian or guard at at anthropic like quit his job two weeks ago to go write poetry in the UK and disappear off the map right I think that's what just happened”
Albert Bartlett's observation that 'the greatest shortcoming of the human race is the inability to comprehend the exponential function' applies to AI: humans are evolutionarily wired for slow change (800M people for 800 years), so rapid exponential improvement in AI capability feels implausible until it's too late.
“the physicist Albert Bartlett once said the greatest shortcoming of the human race is the inability to comprehend the exponential function. You know we as a species are uniquely tuned after 10,000 years to freaking nothing ever happening... when I apply all of those things to AI I am struck by the level of complacency around what it's going to do”
The relationship between US 10-year Treasury yields and 10-year Japanese Government Bond yields, which historically moved together (shrinking spread = yen strength), broke in late 2023-early 2024 when the spread compressed but the yen weakened instead of strengthening, signaling that markets have begun pricing in that Japanese debt saturation is near and will force either yield curve control (money printing) or bond market collapse, marking the beginning of the acute stage of the debt crisis.
“And then in the last fall something really weird and something very troubling happened which is that spread kept collapsing and the yen started weakening against the dollar”
Denial about AI capabilities among white-collar workers mirrors the exact denial that blue-collar workers expressed before China WTO: 'Chinese manufacturing is lower quality' / 'AI makes mistakes'; 'Chinese quality will never match ours' / 'AI won't handle complex tasks'—and in both cases, the capabilities improved exponentially while the deniers waited.
“It is problematic and the blue collar guys oh you know yeah the Chinese okay you know they they'll make cheap stuff really well but they're never going to move up scale well guess what they did and that's just like well AI you know it can do some of these easy tasks but It's not going to do any more complex tasks.”
Government debt in real terms will never be paid off because it will be repaid only in increasingly worthless currency, not because of mathematical impossibility of payment per se, but because the political and economic feedback loops make fiscal adjustment destructive: cutting entitlements causes asset sales and lower tax receipts; cutting defense has similar multiplier effects through leverage.
“Not in real terms. No. They'll pay every penny. Uh it will just be uh currency less and less uh valuable currency in real terms.”
In the 1990s Soviet Union, when the communist apparatchiks lost their meaning and role, they drank themselves to death and committed suicide at rates comparable to the current US rust belt crisis, demonstrating that the psychological crisis of meaning loss is not unique to Western capitalism but is a human pattern across political systems.
“In the Soviet Union in the 1990s, Soviet apparachics in that gigantic system lost their meaning. What did they do? Drank themselves to death, drugged themselves to death, shot themselves to death.”
AI-driven deflation is incompatible with a debt-based monetary system that mathematically requires inflation to remain solvent; therefore, AI productivity is a 'mathematical bookkeeping guarantee' to trigger systemic collapse.
“I keep reading these things like you know AI is going to be productivity and it's not going to take all the jobs and it's just going to drive deflation way down and I say exactly and in a debt based system that was that is a mathematical bookkeeping guarantee to blow up the entire freaking system”
Elon Musk's claim that 'you don't need to save for a pension in 10 years because money won't be needed' represents an extreme interpretation where all products become free (AI productivity → zero marginal cost), but this creates an unsolvable capital structure problem: companies have no revenue to service debt, so equity becomes worthless despite assets being infinitely valuable, creating 'Schrödinger's finance' where stock market goes to zero and infinity simultaneously.
“Let's take it to the extreme. Let's pretend every product that you access is free. Everything. How does how do all of the corporations who borrowed hundreds of billions of dollars mostly to buy back stock in America over the last 20 years, how do they repay their debt or do they even exist after that?”
People are already experiencing financial repression in the present moment through affordability crises (housing, healthcare, education), political instability (assassination of corporate executives, shootings), and the election of populist leaders—all of which are symptoms of the debt spiral's chronic phase that has been running for years, not just warnings of a future acute crisis.
“you can't go anywhere without hearing somebody talking about how the the affordability crisis across the West can't afford housing, quality food is expensive here in America. healthcare is is is uh college u when you get into uh furthermore things like political instability uh when you've got you know people like Charlie Kirk who's just trying to have a conversation get shot when you see uh the CEO of of United Healthcare assassinated in the streets of Manhattan. You see the political reactions to these things. you see the elections of of populists. These are all symptoms of that financial repression running out of room”
The historical precedent for AI-driven job displacement is China's entry into the WTO, which was functionally equivalent to a massive AI productivity shock, resulting in 35% of US manufacturing jobs being lost in seven years and never returning, accompanied by epidemic rates of suicide, alcoholism, and drug overdoses in affected communities.
“this is so reminiscent in almost every layer to when the United States let China WTO or China sended the WTO and we offshored bluecollar jobs to China. That was just an AI productivity boom. That's all it was. You know, there there's very little functional difference between an AI agent doing something in hours for no cost versus, you know, a Chinese factory worker doing something in a day instead of a couple of weeks for for, you know, uh, for basically no cost and no environmental and no regulatory. It's just a matter of degree. And I can tell you how that went. 35% of manufacturing jobs went in seven years. They never came back.”
UBI research shows that unconditional cash transfers to people without work lead to worse outcomes than expected: life quality decreases, mental health worsens, suicide rates rise—not because the money is insufficient, but because the meaning that comes from work is irreplaceable by government checks.
“There's been research on UBI. It's extremely discouraging. You know, yes, actually people end up worse off. Uh yes, they they get to live, but the quality of life decreases, the the the meaning decreases, the rates of suicide go up, mental all these problems.”
The 'April 2nd Liberation Day' incident (Trump's policy announcement causing simultaneous stock, bond, and dollar selloff—classic emerging-market capital flight behavior) was defused within 6 trading days when Treasury market dysfunction reached levels (MOVE index ~178-187) that humans cannot tolerate in a levered system, forcing policy reversal.
“stocks down, dollar down, bonds down, right? So that that is emerging market third world capital flight behavior... for like five straight trading days... and then Trump tacoed, right? Trump always chickens out. Why? Because the United States Treasury market, the deepest, most liquid market in the world, dysfunctioned so severely... Harley Bassman created the move treasury volatility index... on April 9th literally seven trading days later... he publishes the move volatility intraday index and it's like like 187 or one 178... he goes literally humans cannot deal with that kind of volatility in a leveraged system.”
White-collar workers are heavily leveraged (mortgages, car loans, credit cards, non-dischargeable student debt) with almost none owning homes free and clear, making them vulnerable to job displacement in ways blue-collar workers (now experienced in sustained job loss after offshoring) were not.
“we are in a levered system white collar work around the west I would bet what percentage of white collar workers owns their home free and clear do you think in the UK in the US and in Europe...tiny tiny tiny and those that yeah certainly among active workers right I would suspect the boomers a lot of the boomers, former white collar workers, uh probably a lot of them own their houses free and clear, but of sort of the the ones that are about to be disrupted, they almost none of them do. Almost none of them own their cars, right? Car payments are off the charts.”
AI will not take all white-collar jobs immediately, but even modest job displacement (5-10% unemployment increase) combined with the system leverage will trigger cascading defaults through the mortgage and consumer finance markets, similar to 2008 but without any backstop available at the sovereign level.
“AI is not going to take all the white collar jobs. AI is going to take some jobs and systemic leverage will do the rest. We know exactly how this goes. this is inbound, in which case it's probably going to be a brief moment of a of a sort of big whoosh down.”
The Austrian School economists were essentially correct in their long-run diagnosis (high credit growth is unsustainable), but fail in short-run timing because their recommended solutions (complete credit destruction) are politically and socially impossible for democratic governments to implement.
“The Austrian Austrian economists I've tend to find are you know they are they are very very right in the ultimate long run. They're almost always right in the long run. Uh the challenge is is this that it's you know economics is not a science no matter what the economists want to tell you. It's a branch of moral philosophy, right?”
Individual households should avoid all consumptive debt, eliminate existing debt where possible, maintain their physical health to minimize dependence on expensive healthcare systems that will become more costly, and position their finances to survive both hyperinflation and deflation scenarios by maintaining a diversified balance sheet in cash, gold, dividend-paying equities, and real estate.
“I think he can not take on any debt that is not productive. I think he can get out of debt as much as he can. Uh, and when I say not not productive, um, any kind of debt that's consumptive should be avoided, right?”
Government and corporate leadership are deliberately suppressing open acknowledgment of AI's displacement effects because: (1) admitting the crisis would destroy consumer confidence and trigger precautionary savings/spending collapse, and (2) revealing job displacement plans to employees before they're ready would cause immediate organizational collapse as people lose morale and exit, creating a dangerous management problem of timing.
“that's what's coming. And it's not going to take two years. It's going to take six months maybe until something like that happens. And you know, everyone's going to go to the bar on Friday and go, "Yeah, hey, did you hear about Joe? He, you know, he was supposed to be good for 2 years and you know what? They just got rid of his program and now he's got his student loan debt. He's got his mortgage or his apartment. He's got his car loan and he doesn't know what the heck he's going to do. What did it?" Well, probably AI.”
Gold and Bitcoin represent the only assets that will preserve value across both hyperinflation and deflationary scenarios because they have no debt attached and derive value from scarcity rather than cash flows, making them the ultimate hedge when sovereign debt unravels and fiat currency becomes suspect.
“Uh I think it's probably going to be I think it's probably more months. And the reason I think that is is you know again to quote Charlie Mer you show me an incentive I'll show you the outcome. and yeah, it's not going to last long though. I fully concede. I'm being too cute. You know the challenge is is right now it's very hard for the policy makers even if they were good second derivative thinkers and could see this and there's a couple there's one or two here and there that I think can see this but most of them can't. Most of them are just they're not very good thinkers. um even if they could see it, they've got the same sort of problem politically.”
AI improvement follows Moore's Law (exponential growth) with capabilities doubling every 18 months or faster, making current limitations (errors, hallucinations) temporary obstacles that will be overcome in 6-18 months, invalidating arguments that AI won't displace complex work.
“Show me a piece of technology that isn't getting 10 times better a year every year, right? Certainly on AI front, right? But Mors law, right? Morsaw doubles. So this is Morso has been inflated for what 50 years you know compute power doubles every 18 months great if it's not perfect today right it will be you know the blue collar guys oh you know yeah the Chinese okay you know they'll make cheap stuff really well but they're never going to move up scale well guess what they did”
The only way out of a credit bubble once it has begun is either voluntary withdrawal from credit creation (stopping unproductive lending) with acceptance of deflationary consequences resembling or exceeding the Great Depression, or hyperinflation of the currency—these are the only two equilibria, as stated by Austrian economist Ludwig von Mises.
“what is it? Is it Bon Mises who said the only way to stop a a credit bubble once it has started is either voluntary uh withdrawal from the credit bubble or the complete destruction of the currency involved. Yeah, that's it. In other words, in in in plain English, either you stop the credit growth, you stop the credit bubble for unproductive things, and you deal with the economic and political consequences of something that makes the Great Depression look like a tea party or you hyperinflate the currency.”
Major US bank training programs for white-collar workers are being eliminated with only 3 months' notice (where previously there were multi-year tracks), with no explicit explanation but with hints of AI-driven restructuring, suggesting that the implementation of AI job displacement is already occurring in stealth mode and will accelerate dramatically once visible.
“I heard a major American bank had a training program for a white collar field in um I won't elaborate. Been there a bunch. They work they they they they bring in college kids. They worked for two years and then they either, you know, move on or they go to a different part of the bank. They're getting rid of the program. Literally 3 months ago, they thought they were going to be bringing in multiple tens of more kids for this year. Not only are they not doing that as they planned for this year, but the ones who started last year that were supposed to have another year, they're getting let go, too.”
UK and other Western economies are trending toward emerging-market conditions rather than prosperous liberal democracies, as evidenced by affordability collapse, inability of policymakers to accept the necessary pain of fiscal consolidation, and structural tendency to 'kick the can down the road' rather than enact reforms.
“I mean I look here in the UK and I feel like we're starting to resemble more like um a third world country in certain ways. We're trending towards being looking like an emerging market rather than a prosperous western liberal democracy. And it feels like to me that people don't really want to accept or uh take the pain of what is required. So they'd rather just like you say kick the can down the road.”
Consumer confidence will be the leading indicator of when people have internally accepted that mass job displacement is coming—historically consumer confidence tracks equity prices with a lag, but now they are severely diverged (stocks near all-time highs, consumer confidence near GFC lows), and when consumer confidence collapses to truly negative levels requiring new chart scales, it will signal the 'hundredth monkey' moment where collective knowledge has shifted.
“my guess it leads to a conclusion that one of the things we should look for is consumer confidence which is sort of already pretty low here in the US which is very again it's another divergence historically US consumer confidence is just like the S&P with a slight lag. S&P is basically still at all-time highs and consumer confidence is at like you know GFC levels or you know really low levels.”
Charlie Munger's principle ('Show me the incentive, I'll show you the outcome') explains corporate AI deployment speed: quarterly earnings pressure and stock-based compensation create a race to deploy; any company that hesitates while competitors deploy will face management replacement.
“show me an incentive I'll show you the outcome. Corporate America is paid stock options quarterly earnings tremendous pressure. And if one company sector does something and gets rewarded for it management better figure out how to do it or they're going to get fired.”
If government pension fund solvency is questioned (bonds defaulted or devalued in real terms), police and civil servants lose confidence in their compensation; historically, this leads to civil order breakdown—police either extract private payments (corruption) or stop enforcing laws, and property rights evaporate.
“a City of London cop's pension fund full of government bonds either goes away in real terms or you know is marked down on real terms or or is defaulted on how many cops show up for work... They gonna risk getting stabbed, not go home to their kids for a pension that no longer exists... You got a badge. That car over there, hey, you got a broken tail light. No, I don't. Well, you better pay me 100 bucks or you're going to have a broken tail light.”
The United States federal government spends approximately $7 trillion annually, takes in $5.2 trillion in revenues, and of that revenue: roughly 70% goes to baby boomer entitlements (Social Security, Medicare), roughly 30% goes to interest on past debt, and roughly 20% goes to defense, totaling 120% of receipts before funding roads, education, or any other government function.
“Federal government is spending $7 trillion a year. The federal government takes in $5.2 trillion in revenues every year. Of that $5.2 trillion dollars in revenues the government takes in um and took in last year. Roughly 70% of it is going to baby boomers and entitlements um social security, Medicare. Roughly uh another 30% of it or just short of 30% of it is going into interest on the debt that we've spent in the past. Uh another 20% uh roughly uh is going into defense.”
Economics is not a science but a branch of moral philosophy because outcomes depend on human incentives, choices, and values, not deterministic physical laws; therefore, macro predictions are uncertain and hinge on understanding political and cultural constraints, not just mathematical models.
“you know economics is not a science no matter what the economists want to tell you. It's a branch of moral philosophy, right? You are not, you know, it's not like, hey, I'm going to take this napkin. I'm going to drop it. Okay? Every time I drop it, gravity reacts the same way. That's science. Economics is like, well, if I tear this in half and give some to them and some to them, what's that person going to do with it? And it's a moral philosophy. It's an incentive structure.”
The timeline to acute crisis onset is probably 6-12 months, with February 2026 as a potential marker analogous to July 2007 when the first Bear Stearns mortgage funds blew up, signaling the early recognition phase of the broader system failure.
“I think we're going to look back in 6 months, 12 months, 18, 24 months time, and we're going to say February 2026 was the equivalent of July 2007, which if if you if you're not intimately familiar with it, you know, Greenspan started raising rates in June of 04. Meh, into a housing bubble. June of05, home prices peak and start rolling over.”
A brief 'whoosh down' liquidity crisis will occur lasting weeks to months, during which government intervention will be swift and massive (money printing), creating brief windows of opportunity for those with capital and strong balance sheets to buy assets at distressed prices; the real risk is not the crash itself but the long-term structural damage to the currency and the permanent loss of purchasing power that follows.
“yes, there could be a whoosh down. is going to be whooshed down. But in any whoosh down, this sovereign debt very quickly becomes unrepayable for the reasons we let off with. For example, in the United States, we we can't cover interest and entitlements if receipts fall at all without printing money. And so then it becomes a very simple a very simple uh uh set of analyses for the average Steve, which is okay, this thing's inbound. I've made my balance sheet as good as I can. My health is as good as I can. You know, I think financially it makes sense to be overweight cash and gold right now.”
In hyperinflation scenarios, real estate initially performs well but eventually falls below cash because mortgages disappear (no lender will issue mortgages in hyperinflation), transactions become cash-only, and property becomes illiquid; however, rebalancing into gold and equities during hyperinflation allows recovery.
“Your cash becomes worthless, and your real estate actually starts good and then doesn't do well at all. Because in hyperinflation, real estate falls to cash transactions because nobody issues mortgages in hyperinflation. You live, right? Your gold does well. You rebalance at that point. You live.”
Elon Musk's claim that he can cut $2 trillion in government spending is mathematically unrealistic; even if politically possible, cutting that much without shrinking GDP would require removing entire cabinet departments, and the multiplier effects would make the deficit worse (not better) in real terms.
“I've seen, you know, as brilliant as he is, he sort of goes from here to here. He did it with Doge, right? I'm just going to cut two trillion. I remember going, 'Are you high? You can't cut two trillion.'... I had sixth grade math going Elon is never going to get anywhere near cutting a trillion dollars”
Central banks are quietly accumulating gold at unprecedented rates ('like their lives depend on it'), signaling that they are preparing for a major currency/monetary system reset; this is a market-level signal of imminent systemic risk that should inform individual behavior.
“I can look at central banks. I see what they're doing. They don't need to be right on the timing. What are they doing? buying gold like they're like their lives depend on it.”
Entitlement obligations (Social Security, Medicare) are structured like World War I German gold reparations where the government owes real goods (hips, knees, doctor time) not just currency, making inflation-driven currency devaluation unsustainable because beneficiaries need actual medical services.
“these entitlement obligations look like VHimar German gold reparations, war reparations, right? Is they're off balance sheet and they're we don't owe boomers dollars. We owe them hips and knees and doctor's time and uh social security is inflation adjusting. This is this is very similar to what Vhimmer Germany was in when when when the allies said, 'Hey, you owe us money, but you owe it in gold. You owe it in gold reichkes marks.' And so the Germans would print money and gold go up and and it was, you know, that's what we're doing”
The Jacob Fugger portfolio (named for a Renaissance merchant; 25% gold, 25% cash, 25% dividend equities, 25% productive real estate with periodic rebalancing) is designed to hedge both hyperinflationary and deflationary tail risks simultaneously, making individual ruin mathematically impossible regardless of macro outcome.
“Set up a portfolio. What I call Jacob Fuger portfolio...He said you put 25% of your money in gold, 25% of your money in cash, 25% of your money in what would essentially today be um blue chip equities with a good dividend, and 25% of your money in real estate, productive real estate. And then you just rebalance as events happen. And what you're doing with that portfolio for the average Steve is you are making yourself from a financial standpoint impossible to kill.”
If UBI becomes necessary due to AI job losses, the government will likely attach conditions ('quid pro quo') in exchange for welfare payments; the nature and scope of those conditions—and who decides them—poses risks to democracy and individual autonomy.
“do you really think they're just going to hand people money without a quidd proquo? And what's that quid proquo? And who's making the decision of that quid proquo? And what does that drive? And how are we going to keep voting rights when everybody's just getting straight freaking, you know, money from the government? How how can you have a how can you have a democracy when a quorum of the voters are just getting like literally money straight from under no pretense?”
The timing of the acute AI-driven crisis is imminent but uncertain (could be months or up to 2-3 years); however, the correct time to begin preparing is today, regardless of exact timing, because the cost of early preparation is low and the cost of being unprepared is catastrophic.
“Totally possible. Maybe it's 12 months, it's 18 months. Totally possible. Maybe it's 24, 36 months. Totally possible. It's still coming. It's coming... Tell me the right moment in time to start preparing for that asteroid. If it is 24 months or 36 months instead of 6 months or 18, it's still what the right time to prepare is today.”
The book 'The Spectator' recently published an interview with a senior British KC (King's Counsel) who said 'I'm very good at what I do and [ChatGPT] is way better than me—we're screwed'—this is emblematic of white-collar denial giving way to acceptance of technological displacement.
“he was a KC he said I'm very good at what I do and this thing is way better than me we're screwed”