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Historian and author Stephen Kotkin of Princeton University and Stanford University's Hoover Institution talks with EconTalk host Russ Roberts about the historical significance of the life and work of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn on the occasion of the 100th anniversary of Solzhenitsyn's birth. https://www.econtalk.org/stephen-kotkin-on-solzhenitsyn/
EconTalk Extra: https://www.econtalk.org/extra/second-only-after-stalin/
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Solzhenitsyn's enduring relevance lies not merely in his documentation of Soviet atrocities, but in his prescient articulation of cultural nationalism and local identity as legitimate counterweights to universalizing globalization, a tension that explains contemporary political upheavals like Brexit and Trump.
- Solzhenitsyn proved the Gulag predated Stalin, destroying arguments for a redeemable 'pure Lenin revolution' and delegitimizing the entire communist project across Western intellectual circles
- His vision of Russian modernity married local self-rule and cultural spirituality to strong centralized power, rejecting Western institutional universalism decades before globalization backlash
- His warnings about imposing a single worldview across the globe foreshadow unheard voices in contemporary democracies (Brexit, Trump, cultural identity movements)
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Solzhenitsyn's evidence that the gulag system existed and expanded before Stalin became sole ruler, starting from the beginning of the Soviet system, undermined arguments that Leninism was a purer form of communism and Stalinism was merely a degradation.
“the gulag started years before Stalin and his despotism before Stalin was the sole ruler the system was in place and it was in place from the beginning”
Understanding evil figures like Stalin and Hitler as human beings (not monsters) makes their evil scarier and more comprehensible without justifying, validating, or excusing them; this deeper understanding enables reaching a level of insight about how ordinary humanity can commit extraordinary evil.
“sometimes we forget that evil is also human that Stalin was a human being that Hitler was a human being and that the more we understand them as humans the scarier their evil becomes it doesn't mean we justify them it doesn't mean we validate them we make excuses for them but it does enable us to reach a level of understanding”
Solzhenitsyn wanted a post-Soviet Russia characterized by democracy at the local level married to strong centralized power based on Russian tradition, spiritual renewal based on morality rather than law, and resistance to Western universalism.
“the post-soviet for him which as I said he was thinking about well before the Soviet regime collapsed in 1991 was a matter not of westernization per se Heath wanted some measure of local rule local self-rule democracy at the local level but he wanted to marry that with a strong centralized power in Russia because he felt that that was part of the Russian tradition he wanted a spiritual renewal in Russia he wanted a country based on morality not solely or predominantly based on the law he wanted many things which people in the West didn't understand and was one of the reasons behind his difficult reception having been hailed as this great courageous dissident who helped black in the Soviet regime he was then seen as a bizarre 19th century reactionary figure will criticize the West in its values and institutions”
Solzhenitsyn, as a single human being, blackened the image of the Soviet Union globally despite being prohibited from publishing most of his works inside the Soviet Union, where his works nonetheless appeared and spread through underground networks and denunciations.
“Solzhenitsyn was able as a single human being to blacken the image of the Soviet you globally even though he was prohibited from publishing most of his works inside the Soviet Union they nonetheless appeared and spread usually underground sometimes through denunciations of him so he had a massive impact at home as well as abroad and this impact was devastating for the Soviet system”
KGB and Politburo documents published as the Solzhenitsyn Files show that Defense Minister Dmitri Ustinov warned that attempting to organize denunciations of Solzhenitsyn across Party cells might backfire and spark critiques of the Soviet Union from Russian nationalist and Christian conservative viewpoints rather than consolidating pro-Soviet sentiment.
“we now have the secret documents KGB documents and Politburo documents about Solzhenitsyn which were published the number of years ago as the Solzhenitsyn files which shows exactly as you suggested that the regime did not handle him you see for example Dimitri was FINA who was laying at Brezhnev's Minister of Defense Brezhnev was the head of the Soviet Union following Khrushchev for 18 years during the from the mid 60s through the early 80s his ministry of defense Dmitriy Ustinov at a polyp your meaning said that if we try to organise a denunciation of Solzhenitsyn in our organization's meaning in all the party cells across the country it might not turn out the way we hope or the way we want in other words they were afraid that Solzhenitsyn and his belief system and his written works could spark not a pro-soviet consolidation but in fact critiques of the Soviet Union from a Russian nationalist and from a Christian conservative point of view”
Solzhenitsyn will remain historically relevant not merely because of the horrors he documented, but because he tapped into a larger question about how to organize politics when countries have different cultures, and he argued that the West cannot universalize its institutional model across all countries.
“Solzhenitsyn is going to stay relevant Rus and the reason he's going to stay relevant is because it's not just the system that's God not just the horrors that he described which are now hopefully dead and buried the way Stalin is dead and buried but because he tapped into something larger he tapped into this how to organize our politics when countries have different cultures one of the things we've discovered about globalization and about integrating the world economically is that countries still have their cultures and their identities and that these matter and that people often welcome economic integration but not necessarily at the expense of their own well-being economically or of what they value in cultural terms in identity terms and so Solzhenitsyn was ahead of the curve in speaking to those issues he was arguing many years before the Soviet regime felt that the West could not universalize itself that the institutions which made the west what it is and from which Solzhenitsyn benefited tremendously living in freedom owning private property publishing without censorship he understood those values he appreciated those values but he didn't think every country's history tradition and culture was amenable right I thought that combination that package was amenable to the same institutions country's had national traditions national institutions which had to be taken into account”
Upon Stalin's death in 1953, the change in tactics by the KGB and regime—moving from executions to internal exile and prophylaxis—marks a fundamental change in Soviet society driven partly by rising education levels (from third/fourth grade to high school and college completion) and partly by external changes (absence of rival fascist regimes).
“so what they began to do instead was a combination of internal exile which had always been practiced but now was practiced more in lieu of executions and what they called prophylaxis which was to try to preempt people like Solzhenitsyn by either intimidating them or seducing them with offers of goodies so that change in tactics by the KGB marks a change in Soviet society from uneducated a third or fourth grade education for the most part on average to completion of high school education completion of college education and pluses we said external changes in the world”
Many Western intellectuals downplayed the evil of the Soviet regime by acknowledging famines and millions of deaths but arguing these were not intentional but rather mistakes and not core to the system, and that the Gulag was exaggerated with numbers inflated.
“many people downplayed the evil nature of the regime that is to say they would acknowledge yes there were famines yes millions of people died but these were not intentional these were mistakes these were not core to the system the gulag where the labor camp otherwise known as the labor camps where millions of people were incarcerated often first so-called political crimes these were not so big the numbers were exaggerated yes there were excesses but nonetheless even Stalinism was not beyond the pale”
Khrushchev's secret speech denouncing Stalin was an attempt to rehabilitate the Soviet system by distinguishing between Stalin's supposed cult of personality and degradation of the revolution versus a supposedly purer Lenin version, suggesting the revolution itself was salvageable.
“Khrushchev secret speech which denounced Stalin for his crimes was actually an attempt to rehabilitate the Soviet system it harkens back to a pure version of the Revolution supposedly associated with Lenin and with Leninism so that Stalin became a cult of the personality in Khrushchev's term a degradation of the revolution”
Solzhenitsyn was a Russian nationalist (opposed to the Soviet internationalist ideology), a conservative opposed to Marxism-Leninism, and a Christian in a regime that was officially atheist and suppressed Christianity, making him fundamentally incompatible with Soviet values.
“sauce Nielsen was a Russian nationalist and the Soviet regime was supposed to be above nationalism and incorporating a so-called Brotherhood of people's sultan eaton was a conservative not on the left he hated Marxism Leninism and revolution south nation was also a Christian and the Soviet regime of course was officially atheist and attempted to suppress Christianity”
Stalin will always have positive views among Russians because he was in power during World War Two (the greatest war in recorded history) and was on the winning side, meaning he cannot be erased from Russian memory despite his crimes.
“Stalin will always be a major figure with positive as high positive as well as negative views in Russia the reason is pretty simple Rus he won the war Stalin was in power during World War two the greatest war in recorded history against that Hitler regime and he was on the winning side”
Solzhenitsyn wrote his novels, open letters, political tracts, interviews, and speeches directed at his Russian homeland even during his 20-year exile in the West; his entire body of work was crafted to effect change at home, not to address Western audiences.
“in Russian for the audience back home he not only wrote open letters to the Soviet leadership all his novels all his political tracts and interviews and speeches they were directed at his homeland he was trying to affect change at home even when he lived those 20 years in exile in the West”
The French Communist Party remained Stalinist throughout Stalin's rule and even after his death and denunciation, demonstrating the persistence of communist apologism in Western intellectual circles.
“we have to remember that the French Communist Party was Stalinist during the whole period of Stalin's rule and even after Stalin died and was denounced”
Robert Conquest wrote magnificent books uncovering the truth of the Soviet Union, but Solzhenitsyn achieved something more: showing the Soviet Union was evil not merely from a political point of view but from a moral point of view, in a way that was persuasive to mass audiences.
“yes there were many other courageous people yes there were people right there at the Hoover Institution like Robert conquest who wrote magnificent books about the true covering the truth of the Soviet Union however Solzhenitsyn did something more what he did was to show the Soviet Union was evil not just from a political point of view but from a moral point of view and he did it in a way that was persuasive”
Solzhenitsyn based the Gulag Archipelago on published sources, Soviet newspapers and periodicals, his own life experience, and interviews with 226 other political prisoners whose stories he documented, with zero access to Soviet secret archives.
“well documented despite him having zero access to the secret archives of course today people like myself and other scholars we can read those are curves but Solon Eaton had no access to those whatsoever he read published sources Soviet newspapers and other periodicals Soviet books and of course his own life experience and the life experience of two hundred and twenty-six other political prisoners whom he interviewed and whose stories are related in that magnificent three volume Gulag Archipelago”
Heroes and anti-heroes should be understood in their full complexity; the complexities do not diminish achievements, and portraying multiple dimensions and vulnerabilities strengthens rather than weakens respect for both heroes and anti-heroes.
“our heroes were us they're also complex people and the complexities are fine and we shouldn't be afraid of the complexities and as you say they don't diminish the achievements just like I do with our anti heroes with Stalin show the complexity show the multiple dimensions show that he had charm show that people loved him because he was a people person and focused on their lives even as he was ordering the executions of others that complexity is really important and for Solzhenitsyn on the other side a hero not an antihero we also owe him we owe him the respect of showing him in his full complexity and I think his achievement only grows when we do that”
Khrushchev approved the publication of One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich in the Soviet Union as an instrument for his de-Stalinization campaign, not as a fundamental critique of the Soviet system itself.
“it was a kind of keep the system but get rid of the excesses and for that the denunciation of the camps that one could see in Solzhenitsyn's novels look like an important instrument that Khrushchev could use so in fact one day in the life of Ivan Denisovich was approved by Khrushchev for publication in the Soviet Union”
The regime's policy of internal deportation, silencing, and prophylaxis worked very effectively against most dissidents but did not work against Solzhenitsyn, Bukovsky, or Sakharov, while breaking many other dissidents who made peace with the regime or simply tried to survive.
“they tried to banish them internally and cut them off from the public it worked in many cases it didn't work in the case of Kousuke it didn't work in the case of sakarov and obviously it didn't work in the case of Solzhenitsyn but there were exceptions many other people were broken as we would be probably in such circumstances they made their peace with the regime or they simply were trying to survive they had families they had livelihoods not everyone could be Solzhenitsyn Sikora for Bukovsky and so the regime's no policy of internal deportation silencing and/or prophylaxis preemption worked to a very great degree against the dissident movement it just didn't work against somebody like Solzhenitsyn”
There are people in Russia today who detest Stalin and find Stalin memorabilia revolting, and there are significant Russians who cannot stand the name, so the culture is not monolithically enamored of Stalin.
“now there are many people who detest Stalin alive in Russia today there are many people who cannot stand the name who when they see someone wearing a Stalin shirt they or see Stalin memorabilia it's revolting to them their stomach turns I'm not suggesting that the whole culture there is enamored of Stalin but I'm also not surprised that a significant morality still finds some reasons to admire him through all that bloodshed”
Khrushchev failed to succeed Stalin as leader in part because he couldn't fill Stalin's shoes; the relationship between Khrushchev and Stalin was patron-client but Stalin achieved a level of historical magnitude that few other politicians achieve, making him irreplaceable.
“after Stalin died in 1953 he was still the most significant personality in that culture and part of Khrushchev's failure upon attempting to succeed Stalin as the ruler of the Soviet Union was that he couldn't he couldn't fill Stalin shoes he couldn't be Stalin now Khrushchev and Stalin were patron and client right they were teacher and disciple and so we shouldn't expect that Khrushchev would be on that same level but that's kind of the point I'm making Stalin was on a very Stalin was on a level different for most politicians for better or for worse”
Many Western intellectuals in the 1920s-1950s believed or hoped the Soviet system was creating a new, better human being and superior system, and Western apologists lied on its behalf and covered up atrocities, with people like Walter Duranty providing shameful propaganda support.
“in the 20s in the 1920s there were a lot of apologists who believed or hoped that the Soviet system was creating a new a new man a new human being a new system a better system there are people who lied on its behalf who covered it up who trusted the propaganda that was pumped out by that system and the lies that were told when people visited there you know I can't help but think of Walter to Randy as a shameful piece of that story”
Solzhenitsyn was determined and resolute in pursuing truth rather than seeking favor, recognition, apartments, or awards like many intellectuals, making him difficult for the regime to manipulate through blandishments.
“he was very determined and resolved his he was resolute unlike a lot of the intellectual class who wanted let's say favors apartments awards a better life recognition a mass audience Solzhenitsyn wasn't against those aspects of a literary life but he was after much more he was after the truth”
Solzhenitsyn discovered Russian philosophy and literature partly from Soviet education that reintroduced Tolstoy and Dostoevsky under Stalin, and partly from seeking out unorthodox figures outside official Soviet schooling, which he did more extensively when he worked at the Hoover Institution librarian archives, discovering reinforcements of views he had developed on his own.
“Solzhenitsyn discovered a lot of Russian philosophy and Russian authors that is to say that literary figures over the course of time partly it was in Soviet education to begin with for example figures like Tolstoy and Dostoevsky were brought back into the curriculum under Stalin partly it was looking as he did for unorthodox figures that were not part of this official Soviet schooling many of them he discovered only when he got out to the West and he could read the emigration in full for example when he worked at the Hoover Institution librarian archives war he worked through other emigrate publications”
Writing a multi-volume biography of Stalin reveals that Stalin did not have to kill as many people as he did; his regime would have survived without mass executions, suggesting his violence was not defensive but stemmed from his particular psychology and choices.
“I understand him his way of thinking I see why he made decisions he made and I see the consequences of those decisions in the lives of people and it it hurts to see that and it hurts to understand that he didn't have to make those decisions he could have been more magnanimous he didn't have to kill the people he killed his regime would have survived it wasn't under threat”
The regime had multiple vulnerabilities including economic problems, Eastern European satellites in revolt (Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968 Prague Spring) that became sources of vulnerability rather than security, and Solzhenitsyn as a unique threat that they had no effective response to.
“they had a lot of issues don't get me wrong Solzhenitsyn wasn't the only one they had economic issues for us which of course you understand well they had Eastern Europe which was in revolt Soviet satellites of Eastern Europe which was supposed to be a security belt that they acquired in World War two but instead had become a source of vulnerability like in Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 the so-called Prague Spring they had multiple vulnerabilities but somebody likes souls who needs them they had no answer for”
The Gulag Archipelago, an 1,800-page three-volume work longer than War and Peace and longer than Homer's Iliad and Odyssey combined, was published beginning in 1973 (not in the Soviet Union but abroad) and was readable as a page-turner despite its length.
“this achievement of Solzhenitsyn eighteen hundred pages much longer than warned peace longer than Homer's Iliad and Odyssey combined and yet readable a page-turner in many ways yes this incredible achievement”
Solzhenitsyn was not an anti-Semite; he believed religion was the primary determinant of civilization, and therefore wrote about Jews and Russians as different civilizations because of Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Judaism, not from ethnic hatred.
“no he was not that's a really spare is charge soften even believed that religion was the primary determinant of a civilization why did he think that Russia had a separate identity because of Eastern Orthodox Christianity he wrote a book about the Jews in Russia called 200 years together and it was about how Jews and Russians were different civilizations once again because of religion now we can argue that he's wrong that religion is not the primary determinant of a civilization I'm not suggesting that we accept that argument I'm only suggesting that that was the argument he made and that was the reason he differentiated between Russians and Jews even though they had lived 200 years together because Russians joined Jews joined the Russian Empire after or as a result of the partitions of Poland when Poland was swallowed up at the end of the 18th century that's when Russia the Russian Empire the Tsarist Empire acquired a large Jewish population which it did not have before the late 18th century and so the idea that there's separate civilizations because of religion does not constitute anti-semitism”
Solzhenitsyn's works are assigned in high school in Russia today by the official federal curriculum, fitting well with the post-1990s mood in Russia and his vision of Russian modernity, while in the West he can be read alongside Holocaust literature as a reminder of totalitarianism's dangers and what we value morally.
“and he became a figure who fit in well with the post 1991 post 1990s in fact mood in Russia and his works are assigned in high school in Russia today by the official federal curriculum in Russia and in addition he can be read in the West the same way that we read Holocaust literature we of course hope that something like that never happens again what happened to the Jews under Nazi rule but yet we still read the Holocaust it still speaks to us because it's about who we are and what we value and the kinds of moral choices in difficult moments under authoritarian or totalitarian regimes Sultan eats and speaks to that in the West even as he speaks to a Russian version of modernity”
The regime eventually deported Solzhenitsyn to the West in the early 1970s, where he lived for the next 20 years, even though Stalin would have killed him for far less, representing a change in the regime's tactics from mass violence under Stalin to internal exile and prophylaxis under later leaders.
“finally they bundled him onto a plane and deported him to the west where he lived the next 20 years of his life the beginning yes beginning in the early 70s”
Solzhenitsyn won the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1970 for his novels about the labor camps based on firsthand experience, including One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich, In the First Circle, and Cancer Ward.
“he won the Nobel Prize in Literature for these novels and we know them as one day in the life of Ivan Denisovich we know them as in the first circle and of course cancer ward”
Solzhenitsyn was arrested in World War Two while serving in the Soviet Army for indiscreet comments about Stalin, which were harmless under normal circumstances but treated as political crimes in the Stalinist regime.
“Solzhenitsyn was somebody who served in the Soviet Army in World War two he was part of that invasion force that swept into Poland and then Prussia on its way to Berlin in the midst of that he was arrested for some indiscreet comments about Stalin which were normally would be considered harmless but in such a regime as the Stalin regime were considered a political crime and so he was sentenced sent to the gulag”
Kotkin's three-volume biography of Stalin is nearly complete with first two volumes published (approximately 2,000 pages total with footnotes); a third volume covering WWII, the Cold War, and Stalin's death is in progress.
“you're writing a biography of Stalin you've issued you've published the first two volumes is that correct - yes date and they come to 2,000 pages although I'm sure that includes a lot of footnotes and references is there one more volume plan or more than one and what's it like to spend that much time and that many pages with a person you view as a monster yeah I do have one more volume schedule which I'm working on now which covers the period of World War two the called war Stalin's death in the aftermath”
If Solzhenitsyn had lacked the courage to write his works or if his work had not survived, not been dispersed through underground networks, or made it to the West, Soviet history and world history would have been different, though the precise nature of that difference is counterfactual.
“had he not had the courage to do what he did or had his work not survived not gotten outside the camp not been dispersed through various underground networks and then made it its way to the west would do you think Soviet history and world history would have been different if so how yes”
Effective satire of evil regimes (like Brooks' satire of Mussolini's fascism or Chaplin's satire of Hitler) can work well, but Yuri Iannucci's film 'The Death of Stalin' portrays regime operatives (Beria, Molotov, Khrushchev, Kaganovich) as idiots and corrupt urban politicians rather than as blinkered ideologists who were effective administrators in a dictatorship, thus missing how the system actually functioned.
“however one of the problems with you new Chi is that just like soldier soldier needs portrait of Stalin in in the first circle now once again it can make you feel good but to portray that regime's operatives those around Stalin when he died Baria Molotov Molotov Khrushchev kaganovich to portray them as idiots as venal corrupt politicians like we would find I don't know in in the urban political machine of any major city right graft and bribes and favors to portray them as corrupt and venal in that way and that is not very intelligent is to miss of course how that system could have arisen in the first place and how it could have functioned if everyone was so stupid and if everyone was merely corrupt the Soviet regime never would have happened the people who ran the Soviet regime were not geniuses but they weren't performance they were blinkered ideologically but they were effective administrators in a dictatorial regime”
The historian's task is to convey from inside the original documents with deep empathy (not sympathy) how a regime worked and why it happened, showing understanding without teaching exemplary values like courage, perspicacity, magnanimity (which biographies were originally invented to teach).
“so my job in a way is to convey from the inside from the original documents from a sense of deep empathy not sympathy but deep empathy or understanding as we historians call it empathy of how that regime worked and why it happened the way it did but no we're not writing this biography because we have an exemplary figure we're not teaching Courage Fowler perspicacity magnanimity we're not teaching those values for which biography was originally invented we're teaching the opposite of those things with this biography but those are important lessons too”
Globalization and economic integration have revealed that countries still have distinct cultures and identities that matter to their populations; people welcome economic integration but not necessarily at the expense of well-being or cultural and identity values.
“one of the things we've discovered about globalization and about integrating the world economically is that countries still have their cultures and their identities and that these matter and that people often welcome economic integration but not necessarily at the expense of their own well-being economically or of what they value in cultural terms in identity terms”
Satire of democratic and Western political systems works better than satire of totalitarian evil regimes because the stakes are lower (political systems matter less) and the absence of mass-scale atrocity makes it easier to laugh.
“I do recognise it once again as an entertainment and it may be harsh to judge it in historical terms rather than as a piece of entertainment however as a piece of entertainment it falls short from me precisely because you can do satire well over regime that big but it's a little one-dimensional ultimately you know gee when he does this about a democratic a Western political system the US system the British system it works much better the stakes are lower because the political system doesn't matter as much and also because they don't have that monstrosity that evil on a mass scale that these officials perpetrated”
Solzhenitsyn was subjected to liberal condescension in the West—an attempt to impose a single worldview or political system across the globe—which he critiqued and which has backfired in contemporary times, as evidenced by Brexit and Trump.
“he was then seen as a bizarre 19th century reactionary figure will criticize the West in its values and institutions and didn't understand the West but in fact a kind of liberal condescension the attempt to impose a single worldview or a single political system across the globe which we've seen backfire in our lifetimes that was something Solzhenitsyn worried about and he priests aged”
A large part of the American country and electorate was unheard and their voices weren't being heard, as revealed by the Trump election and the electoral college result, which exposed sentiments about cultural identity and economic marginalization that are real and worthy of political debate, regardless of whether current political solutions are effective.
“what did the trump presidency his election in the electoral college what did it reveal it revealed that a large part of the country was unheard that their voices weren't being heard that's what Trump revealed and that's what brexit revealed and that's to an extent what Solzhenitsyn foretold once again we're not necessarily solving those issues that were revealed the politics may be fake but what I'm suggesting is the sentiments are real and those sentiments are a worthy debate for us to have”
Roberts finds Solzhenitsyn's portrayal of Stalin in In the First Circle more affecting and effective than the Death of Stalin film because Solzhenitsyn provided the contrast: the belittlement of Stalin as a man was juxtaposed against the rest of the novel's depiction of utter human horror and debasement perpetrated by the regime.
“the reason I found distance portrait more affecting and more effective is that while he did belittle the man we had the rest of the book and the rest of the book is about the utter horror and human debasement that Stalin was was perpetrating on on his fellow citizens and so I thought that contrast was quite powerful”
Solzhenitsyn was not interested in moral, political, or biographical understanding of Stalin; he was interested in countering Soviet propaganda and belittling the inflated figure, making his portrait primarily a political act rather than a historical one.
“So Neeson was not interested at all in moral or political or biographical terms of reaching an understanding of Stalin's character he was just interested in countering Soviet propaganda and belittling this figure who had been inflated”
Roberts found the Death of Stalin film's opening concert scene quite powerful and creepy in capturing the utter abject fear people had of being on the wrong side of Stalin, with periodic gunshots in the background representing executions, making it an attempt to temper buffoonery with reminders of underlying horror.
“in the movie and well not there will be no spoilers here but in the opening scene I found quite quite powerful and creepy it did capture some of the it tried to be humorous about it but it did capture some of the utter abject fear that people had of being on the wrong side of of Stalin and and it tried to be it didn't work for me aesthetically but it tried to temper the buffoonery with periodic gunshots people being just executed in the in the background of the film which which is an interesting way to try to deal with what we're talking about”
Stalin is the 'gold standard' of dictatorship because no other dictator has amassed more power, exercised it with greater consequence, or sustained it longer (Mao lacked a military-industrial complex, Hitler lasted only 12 years), making Stalin essential for understanding how power works.
“at the same time for us if you're interested in power you're interested in how power works how its accumulated how its exercised and what the consequences of exercising power are a Stalin is really the gold standard he's the gold standard of dictatorship no dictator has amassed more power than Stalin exercised it with greater consequence Mao didn't have a military-industrial complex and of course the Hitler regime went up in flames after only 12 horrible yes but only 12 years while Stalin lasted three decades”
Solzhenitsyn deserves credit for his bitterness, arrogance, and personality struggles given his suffering in camps; his achievement as a genius writer with incredible vision who produced an unimaginable volume of words under inhumane circumstances and created entertaining, compelling historical documentation justifies overlooking personality complaints.
“he was in the camps he's entitled to all the bitterness and all the arrogance you got to cut him some slack and he wasn't just a prisoner who was good at writing it wasn't that lovely that he was able to use the prison experiences to craft some novels and and unique historical documentation in the gulag he was a genius he had an incredible vision he pumped out unimaginable number of words under circumstances that human being should not have to to be in to start with and there unbelievably entertaining like you said here a history of the of the gulag that's a page-turner so I don't really care if he's even vaguely normal I'd expect him to be a troubled and complicated person”
Studying Stalin through declassified documents with his pencil marks, check marks, underlinings, and orders to kill specific persons and deport entire nations is deeply troubling and cumulative in its psychological weight over many years.
“I spent now as you say a lot of time with Stalin and it is very troubling you see the evil on the pages on those documents you read with his pencil marks his check marks and pencil his under linings you see the orders to kill this person on that person deport this whole nation yes it's it's hard to describe in words that experience and as you say over a number of years it's cumulative”
In First Circle, Solzhenitsyn's lengthy chapters satirizing Stalin portray him as egotistical buffoon, petty, childish, and insecure; these chapters don't add much to the plot and could be seen as an indulgence for Solzhenitsyn to get revenge psychologically, though they remain less effective as historical portraiture than the rest of the novel's documentation of suffering.
“there are four chapters that relate to Stalin and there it's quite lengthy some editors would have cut them they don't add a lot to the plot directly there's sort of a in they could be interpreted I don't think this is correct but they could easily be interpreted as a an indulgence on the part of Sorensen to get it off his chest to satirize and and poke fun at Stalin his portrait Stalin is I would say Stalin is egotistical buffoon as a petty child as an insecure off alter rebe”
Solzhenitsyn's essay 'Virtual Nationalism' explores themes of cultural identity and nationalism, and Roberts recommends listeners go back and read that episode featuring Yuval Noah Harari, as it provides important context to contemporary debates about nationalism and universalism.
“I encourage listeners to go back to the if you haven't heard at the episode we did with a euro zone II in his book the virtua nationalism which you know is is kind of shocking it you kind of it's easy as a westerner or certainly as an American to think that the trampled march of democracy and capitalism is going to sweep the world”
The essay Kotkin wrote for The Times Literary Supplement aimed to establish that Solzhenitsyn was a great writer who would endure because of his literary quality, not solely because of his political role or struggle against the Soviet regime, emphasizing that his achievement only grows when we acknowledge his full complexity.
“the essay I wrote for the tls to which you're referring which is published this week my goal in that was first of all to make sure people understood that he was a great writer and that he will endure because he was a great writer not just because he had a political point of view or was a political figure or was caught up in battling the Soviet regime he's a great writer and that's very important to acknowledge second thing is that our heroes were us they're also complex people and the complexities are fine and we shouldn't be afraid of the complexities and as you say they don't diminish the achievements”
The Soviet Union has been gone for over a quarter century, making it difficult for contemporary audiences to appreciate the seriousness of Cold War debates about Soviet reform, convergence theory, and whether the Soviet system could evolve into something acceptable.
“the debate we had about the Soviet Union it's much muted now it's hard for us to appreciate the Soviet Union has been gone for more than a quarter century”
Roberts recommended The Gulag Archipelago to undergraduates for years over a decade as a tribute to Solzhenitsyn's moral courage, feeling that he deserved the readership, and also recommended Anne Applebaum's shorter history The Gulag as well as the one-volume version of The Gulag Archipelago that Solzhenitsyn approved.
“when ice to teach undergrads on the last class I would recommend a series of books I didn't think they might think of reading that I would recommend encourage them to read and for years over a decade certainly in the 80s and and a lot of the 90s I would recommend that they read The Gulag Archipelago just out of tribute to his courage in writing that book that I felt like morally he deserved from people to read that book I'd also would recommend an apple bombs book The Gulag which is a very nice shorter version of the history and of course there's now a one-volume version of The Gulag Archipelago that as you write in your essay that Solzhenitsyn approved of”