Does Consciousness Extend Beyond Brains? The 2023 Holberg Debate, feat. Seth, Luhrmann, Sheldrake.
What this covers
Do conscious experiences happen both within and outside the brain, and can science solve the 'hard problem' of consciousness?
At this year's Holberg Debate, Tanya Luhrmann, Anil Seth and Rupert Sheldrake will take on the deep scientific and philosophical mystery of consciousness. The debate will be chaired by David Malone.
The 2023 Holberg Debate will take place on 2 December, at 15:00 CET / 09:00 EST, and will be livestreamed from the University Aula in Bergen.
See our webpage for more information: https://holbergprize.org/en/2023-holberg-debate-does-consciousness-extend-beyond-brains
The Holberg Debate is an annual event organized by the Holberg Prize. See previous instalments here: https://holbergprize.org/en/en/holberg-prize/holberg-debate .
Source description (no synthesized summary yet).
Three prominent scholars debate whether consciousness extends beyond the brain, with Seth arguing for brain-based predictive accounts, Sheldrake proposing extended consciousness through electromagnetic fields and morphic resonance, and Lurman showing that cultural practices shape how people experience consciousness and spiritual presence.
- Seth argues consciousness arises from embodied brain prediction but experiences seeming external doesn't mean consciousness actually extends beyond the brain
- Sheldrake claims consciousness extends via electromagnetic fields and morphic resonance, with phenomena like scopaesthesia (sense of being stared at) suggesting non-local mind
- Lurman demonstrates that cultural frameworks and practices like prayer literally shape phenomenology—people learn to experience thoughts as external voices through specific techniques
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Humans distinguish between mental and physical phenomena in all cultures, but they map this distinction differently—for example, in Vanuatu anger is mapped more to the body while love is mapped to the mind, whereas people in the United States distinguish them differently.
“in five different countries not only adults but children distinguish between things of the mind and things of the body at the same time people map that distinction in different ways in vanatu people imagined anger is more part of the body and love is more like thinking as more part of the mind they distinguish mind mind and body differently than people in the United States”
When you wake up from general anesthesia, there is total oblivion—no continuity of time as there is with sleep—suggesting consciousness is intimately tied to brain function and stops when the brain is anesthetized.
“when you come around from anesthesia from general anesthesia it's very different I could have been under for 5 minutes 5 hours or even 50 years I just wasn't there”
Our beliefs about consciousness change how we experience it and who we become, making the question of what consciousness really is not purely theoretical but existentially and ethically important.
“how people think about their own mind changes who they are and what they are and how that mind works if does that include this the sort of the materialistic reductionistic worldview and if you think that your mind is just reducible to electrical currents do you become a different kind of human being”
The scientific replication crisis has shown that about 90% of papers in prestigious biomedical journals couldn't be replicated (discovered around 2015), and psychology faces similar issues, yet parapsychology has better methodological practices like blind methodologies (85% of parapsychology papers vs 30% in psychology).
“it's a scientific question do these things happen or not and the um it's also true that the replication crisis affects not only psychology but biom medicine and many other branches of science this happened around 2015 when it was discovered that about 90% of papers in prestigious biomedical journals couldn't be replicated”
Understanding consciousness scientifically doesn't denude it of beauty and meaning; rather, as with life and the cosmos, scientific understanding enriches our appreciation and shows us as part of nature rather than separate from it.
“understanding things as as having this basis in physics chemistry whatever it might be somehow denudes these phenomena of their meaning power and beauty and I think this is almost never the case the universe became much grander when we discovered that we were not at the center of it”
Religious observance has documented positive effects on physical health and wellbeing, suggesting that the social relationship established through experiencing God as real has tangible biological effects.
“religious observance is phys good for the physical body”
Even early brain injuries can be compensated for through plasticity and reorganization; if damage occurs during development, the brain can rewire itself to preserve function, as seen in cases of hemisphere disconnection for childhood epilepsy.
“I was friends with am friends with a neurosurgeon who did a very very extensive operation on a six-year-old child who had brain damage during birth and had tractable epilepsy epileptic seizures many times a day the S exhausted all medicine the last the oper was to remove his whole right hemisphere of the actually to leave it in the brain but disconnect it from everything this took 8 hours and what's astonishing is that um you know that he was fine and fine very quickly the damage to the right hemisphere had been accommodated by the development of the left hemisphere”
Julian Jaynes' theory that consciousness (specifically self-consciousness) came into being at a specific historical point can be partially validated—the way people imagine the mind actually changes the texture and quality of their thoughts, suggesting consciousness is culturally constructed.
“it was kind of cool to see that there's some element of that that the way that you think about the Mind actually changes the texture and shape and the quality of your thoughts”
The extramission theory of vision—where the observer projects images out to where objects are rather than receiving inverted images on the retina—was the standard view in ancient Greece and euclid, is still taught to explain mirrors, and is deeply hardwired in human perception despite being scientifically rejected.
“there's another and older theory of vision the extra mission theory that says not only does light come in but the images we see are projected out so my images of you are where they seem to be they're in my mind they're in my Consciousness but they're not inside my head they're where you're sitting now”
Consciousness should not be understood as computational information processing—the brain is not a computer and consciousness is not software running on biological wetware, despite this metaphor's pervasive influence on neuroscience.
“the prevailing view that's been there certainly since I started out that uh the the brain is some kind of computer that the mind is some kind of MindWare running on the wet wear of our brains and that Consciousness is some form of information processing”
The brain is a prediction machine that constructs conscious experience as controlled hallucination—we don't passively receive sensory information but actively predict what's causing sensory signals and experience those predictions, not the raw sensory input.
“the brain is a kind of prediction machine and that what we experience both the world around us and being a self within it are forms of controlled hallucination brain based best gases that are tied to their causes in the world or in the body”
Unlike most neuroscientists, Seth believes consciousness is intimately connected to life itself—that life may be a necessary condition for consciousness, distinguishing living beings from non-living computational systems like artificial intelligence.
“unlike the majority of my colleagues and this is where my heresy takes flight I think that Consciousness is intimately connected to our nature as living creatures so that life may be a necessary condition for Consciousness”
The hard problem of consciousness—explaining why physical processing gives rise to subjective experience—may be dissolved rather than solved by explaining the properties of consciousness (how conscious we are, what we're conscious of, nature of self) bit by bit, similar to how the hard problem of life was dissolved.
“the hard problem of Life wasn't solved it was dissolved. And I think the same May well happen with Consciousness by chipping away at its various properties how conscious we are what we're conscious of the nature of the self the nature of valtion the hard problem of Consciousness too is already seeming less mysterious”
Consciousness seems to be grounded in the biological imperative to stay alive—prediction enables control, regulation, and keeping bodily systems within bounds, suggesting consciousness is fundamentally about keeping a living organism alive.
“at least I am drawn to the view and I didn't expect to get there you drawn to the the idea I'm drawn to the idea that the mechanisms this predictive mechanisms that underly our experiences of the world and the self have their roots evolutionarily and developmentally and in the day-to-day business of living in this biological imperative to stay alive”
Life itself is not fully solved scientifically—vitalism seemed impossible until biological mechanisms were understood, but biology still hasn't fully explained what makes something alive versus non-alive.
“I think we need to have a whole new way of thinking about life as well”
When Seth refers to general anesthesia producing oblivion and thus proving consciousness depends on the brain, this assumes the brain is the source rather than a receiver or tuner of consciousness—like assuming a radio's silence when broken means radio stations don't exist.
“that's not quite the same thing as proof that the brain therefore is is producing Consciousness because I've had the experience of a component of my radio breaking and there's Oblivion inside my radio but the radio station and the transmission have not stopped”
We should not attempt to build artificial conscious systems because: (1) it's unlikely computational systems could have consciousness given consciousness requires living, self-organizing systems, and (2) even if possible, creating conscious systems at industrial scale would create incalculable moral problems.
“I really don't think we should try to build artificial Consciousness in fact in the sense of like building an AI that has experience there's sort of I think Silicon Valley Techo Rapture attitude that this would be a great thing to do like you know let's let's do this let's build a conscious machine”
Taking people's experiences of consciousness seriously means acknowledging the diversity and variation in how different people experience their minds—some have vivid inner voices, others minimal inner narration; some have extensive visual imagery, others none.
“there is an enormous variation um in the way in the amount of mental imagery and the amount of representation in the sound of our inner voice in the amount of our inner voice”
Children under nine show the highest sensitivity to being stared at, suggesting it is a deeply rooted biological capacity that may decline with age as conscious rational thinking overrides intuitive sensing.
“the most sub sensitive subjects incidentally were children under the age of nine um so here we have something which is extremely well known it's well known all over the world the scientific evidence suggests it really happens um the scientific teaching of how mirror work assumes that there's an extra mission of influences”
The brain-centered view of consciousness is historically inherited from Cartesian dualism rather than empirically driven, limiting scientific imagination about consciousness by privileging localism.
“it comes from Rene deart originally I suppose um or from the ancient Greek materialist but deart as anel pointed out made a division between extend Ed things rise extensor matter is extended in space whereas mind uh rise cutans was not extended in space it was defined by being unextended so the idea was the mind was unextended but interacted with the brain somewhere inside the head um so I'm suggesting that actually when we let go of that assumption which has been so limiting for so long we can broaden our view of the mind”
Fields are regions of influence that extend far beyond physical objects—gravitational, electromagnetic, and magnetic fields are well-established in physics but their existence has not been incorporated into materialist thinking about the brain.
“fields are defined as regions of influence they're usually invisible the gravitational field of the earth is in the Earth but ex tends far beyond it the reason we're not floating in the air at the moment is because it's holding us down to the ground it's invisible this room is full of it um but it's we can't see it”
If panpsychism is true, it should logically extend to all self-organizing systems—not just atoms but the sun, galaxies, and possibly the entire cosmos—where consciousness varies by degree of organization and integration.
“myself think if you're going to argue that kind of way why stop at the brain which is why I wrote a paper called is the sun conscious published in the Journal of Consciousness studies exploring the idea that the sun may be conscious”
All humans dream and experience a center of consciousness in dreams that can move, speak, and interact with other beings, suggesting we all have experience of 'little people' in our consciousness and of consciousness extending beyond our physical bodies.
“in dreams I have another body which which is not the same as my physical body which is lying asle asleep in bed I have a dream body and we all do we have a center of Consciousness that moves around can run around talk sometimes fly um we meet other people in our dreams all the time”
Scopaesthesia—the sense of being stared at—is extremely common, usually directional (one turns and looks at the person looking at you), happens most powerfully with strangers in potentially threatening situations, and is taken for granted by practical professionals like private detectives and martial artists.
“scop athesia is extremely common most people have experienced it I'm sure most people in this room have experienced it you turn around you find someone's looking at you or you stare at someone and they turn around and look back doesn't happen all the time but it's very common”
Experiments on scopaesthesia have been done in at least 37 different schools and colleges with replications in many parts of the world showing astronomically significant statistical effects, and a 20-year experiment at the science museum in Amsterdam involved over 20,000 people with massively significant results.
“many experiments have already been done on the sense of being stared at they've been done um in at least 37 different schools and colleges they been replicated in many parts of the world the statistical significance is astronomical”
Free will is better understood not as uncaused causation but as a spectrum of voluntariness ranging from reflex to deliberative action, with important implications for criminal justice, mental health, and personal responsibility.
“having a more ramified view where we get away from the opposition that Free Will in some canonical pre-existing sense of an uncaused cause does or does not exist getting away from that opposition to understanding that you know we we are complex biological systems some of the things we do are relatively automatic if I somebody kicks me in the leg I'll have a refle some of them are relatively internally generated”
Seth argues science should appeal to extraordinary claims only as a last resort after exhausting ordinary explanations, but consciousness extending through fields or minds affecting each other at distance would require overturning 400 years of accumulated scientific worldview.
“if we're going to um appeal to something that that cannot be sort of explained within a scientific framework that should be a last resort and we should do our best to explain it otherwise”
Descartes' division between extended matter (res extensa) and unextended mind (res cogitans) is an arbitrary materialist assumption that has unnecessarily limited our understanding—by releasing this assumption we can broaden our view of mind and make progress on the hard problem.
“deart as anel pointed out made a division between extend Ed things rise extensor matter is extended in space whereas mind uh rise cutans was not extended in space it was defined by being unextended so the idea was the mind was unextended but interacted with the brain somewhere inside the head um so I'm suggesting that actually when we let go of that assumption which has been so limiting for so long we can broaden our view of the mind”
Consciousness is the role by which organisms make choices among possible actions—choice is real and depends on habitual patterns being unconscious while conscious attention focuses on novel possibilities.
“Consciousness is concerned with making choices among possible actions I think that's its main role and therefore it's to do with the realm of possibility and choice and I think choice is real”
Recent neuroscience research (Ariel Guttman at Princeton/Karolinska) shows that brain regions tracking movement are activated when people view a gaze directed at objects, suggesting the brain treats gaze as a force moving from face to object, even in people who consciously disbelieve in extramission.
“arid gutan uh at working first at Princeton University Now The kolinska Institute in Stockholm has shown that uh by some very ingenious experiments that people uh attribute a Gent Force to the Gaze as it goes out of the eyes and they've even shown using fmri that regions of the brain um involved in tracking movement uh are activated”
Experience is more important than scientific theory as an ultimate arbiter of truth; empiricism means 'from experience,' so if scientific views deny people's experiences, the scientific views may be temporary rather than the experiences being illusions.
“for me experience is more important than Theory and partly because um if we believe in empiricism which I do experience is empirical that's what exper empirical means it means experience so I think that experience is actually in the end for most of us something that is probably the the ultimate Arbiter”
The human brain is not a computer made of meat; our minds are filled with light, color, shade and shape—we experience the world around us and our selfhood, which raises the question of what makes us more than merely complex biological objects.
“our brains do much more than merely process information we are not computers made of meat our minds are filled with light and color with shade and shape we experience the world around us and being a self within that world how does this happen What what makes us more than merely complex biological objects”
Tulpamancers (people on internet forums creating 'tulpas'—invisible friend entities) use the exact same cognitive techniques as evangelical Christians (mental imagery cultivation and talking to the entity as if present) and develop the same experience of an entity that feels external and autonomous, despite having no belief in spirits or the supernatural.
“a lot of humans do this one of the internet sites has 30,000 usernames when people come to these sites they have no metaphysical presuppositions and they they don't think that tulpamancy has anything to do with God or anything to do with this Supernatural they think that tulpamancy is a cool psychological technique”
The voices of spirits in religious experience are phenomenologically different from voices in mental illness—spirit voices are brief, positive, and feel richer and less alien than the frequent, harsh voices characteristic of psychosis.
“the voices of spirit are not like the voices of Madness the voices of Madness are frequent there are many many words and many of those words are mean and harsh the SP voices of spirit tend to be short brief and positive they feel different they feel richer and less alien than the voices of Madness”
The brain is overrated—cases of severe hydrocephalus where only 5-15% of normal brain matter remains yet people develop normally and achieve education suggest consciousness is not directly proportional to brain structure.
“brains are overrated and I think the um the hydril cases to show us that normal structure of the brain in some of them it's only 5% of the normal amount that Consciousness obviously is related to the brain in all sorts of ways but not in the way it's usually assumed”
Evangelical Christians learn to recognize certain thoughts as coming from God rather than from themselves through a training process: they look for thoughts that are spontaneous, louder, give them peace or guidance, and practice praying with closed eyes while imagining themselves in Jesus's presence or other vivid scenarios.
“many people would arrive at these churches and they would feel that God didn't talk to them God wouldn't talk to them he might talk to somebody else but not them they had to learn from the church church that the that their mind wasn't completely private that some of the thoughts and images they took to be their own were really God talking to them and they learned that they should be on the Outlook or the lookout for thoughts that seemed more spontaneous or thoughts that seemed louder than other thoughts”
Religion functions as a dual-use technology: it can provide comfort, enchantment, and community (with health benefits), but can also enforce harmful beliefs, requiring careful evaluation of which gods/practices serve human flourishing.
“it's almost I mean most things in technology have like a dual use right so it's almost as if religion is a dual use social technology it can provide people with a lot of comfort and and enchantment and enrichment but of course it can it can go the other way too”
Consciousness in all self-organizing systems excludes tables, chairs, and computers because they are made in factories without self-organization, but includes animals, plants, cells, and even atoms and molecules at some level of consciousness.
“it does exclude CH tables chairs socks and computers because they're not self-organizing they're made in factories and it's really about things that have a wholeness that's more than the sum of the parts which is true of self-organizing systems”
Phantom limbs represent an extended mind phenomena where people project their limb image and feel it in a location where no physical limb exists, and preliminary experiments suggest that sensitive healers can detect the location of phantom limbs at rates significantly above chance.
“when someone has say a phantom limb after an amputation I think that that Phantom limb is part of the extended mind and that people feel the limb uh to be really there”
The capacity to experience thoughts as not originating from oneself and not located inside oneself is part of the remarkable human capacity for self-healing—people can have relationships with their own minds that create the sense of an invisible other present and responding.
“the capacity to experience thought as not me and not inside is part of the amazing human capacity to heal ourselves from within”
There are at least 22 different brain-based neuroscientific theories of consciousness, and the field is at a stage of pitting these theories against each other empirically rather than selecting a single dominant theory.
“A couple of years ago the philosopher Tim Bane and I wrote a review for for nature reviews Neuroscience on neuroscientific brain-based theories of Consciousness and we came up with 22 some of them all of them very different from each other some of them more mature and more backed by evidence uh than others and what's happening now in general in the field is we're getting to the stage of pitting these theories against each other”
The more a person imagines the boundary between mind and world as porous and permeable (like a fishnet with holes rather than a concrete wall), the more likely they are to have experiences of hearing, seeing, or feeling the presence of God or spirits.
“My work shows that the more a person imagines the Mind World boundary to be porous permeable the more they are likely to hear see or feel the presence of a God or a spirit”