Unidentified Speaker — Jeffrey Gundlach Speaks at the Buffalo AKG Art Museum [6xQbscs2ZvI]
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The next recession will be different from historical recessions because when weakness arrives, investors will no longer assume 'the old movie' (economy weak → rates fall); instead, they will worry about the government's ability to finance its massive deficit through new bond issuance at current yields, potentially leading to failed Treasury auctions and forced debt restructuring.
The concept of 'double line' (from road safety metaphor) represents the idea of no fatal risks: a road's double yellow line prevents head-on collisions by preventing drivers from crossing into oncoming traffic on a windy road. Similarly, investment portfolios need a 'double line'—a boundary that prevents positions from becoming so large that a wrong call would be catastrophic.
A broker told the speaker that his successful Treasury bond sale was profitable only because he had no experience; with experience, he would have second-guessed himself. The speaker now realizes this is correct because experience makes you 'ossified' in your thinking and less open to new information.
Experience over 40 years of falling interest rates may not be a positive guide for the present moment because interest rates are now secularly rising, and historical relationships that worked in a falling-rate environment will reverse or become unreliable in a rising-rate environment.
Interest rates have 'secularly bottomed' and are now in a period of secular rise; therefore many historical recession relationships will reverse in the next downturn: people will say the dollar will go down (not up), Emerging Markets will outperform (not underperform), and non-dollar investments will be more attractive.
In the speaker's first year of work (early 1980s), interest rates were falling from 15% and he sold long-term Treasury bonds at what turned out to be the absolute top price (7%); four months later rates were at 10.43%. He was right on the timing purely because he had no experience and was not second-guessed by experience-based intuition.
The Federal Reserve is expected to cut interest rates several times by end of 2024. The speaker enters the conversation estimating one cut by year-end, but notes this has been one of the most volatile years for Fed expectations, with consensus ranging from 7 cuts at year start to nearly zero by end of March, then spiking to 10 cuts (250 basis points) before moderating.
The CPI is seasonally adjusted but the adjustment is done 'very poorly,' creating a consistent pattern where the first quarter surprises to the upside, the second quarter surprises less, and the third and fourth quarters surprise to the downside. This makes early-year inflation scares unreliable for annual policy forecasting.
The speaker has taken 'dramatic' protective measures to shield clients from potential 'crazy responses' to economic situations, and cites examples of policy rule-breaking over 20-25 years, including GM pension subordination, mortgage modification despite prospectus covenants, and illegal Fed corporate bond purchases.
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